The Alpha Wolf Joins the Pack!

[BackStop]

I doubt I will live long enough to justify the cost and I doubt I will live long enough for the price to become justifiable.

Don't get me wrong, I love the innovations Daystate is bringing.

However, for 99%+ of the people who shoot air guns, these are simply so far out of range in price that it is ridiculous. Yes, 99%+.

Well, then again, maybe there ARE more Millionaires and Billionaires these days. (chuckle)

Oh, and I am not picking on Daystate. FX and plenty of others have priced their guns out of range of the majority of airgun shooters.

I thought you were complaining about a $2900 price...that is nothing new. But checked the price...and it's $3599!? Forget about it...

Well, forgive me, but if you can afford to plunk down $2900 for an airgun, then I don't think you would wince too much at $3600! LOL!

For what I need an airgun to do, these prices are beyond ridiculous. The only working PCP I have now is a Benjamin Fortitude Gen2 in .177 that I paid about $236 for a couple of years ago (June 12, 2020 when Crosman still allowed the AGN discount code for 25% off, new, delivered) before Crosman raised the price to a ridiculous $455.

It has warts and needs to be coddled to keep it shooting with precision, but I can shoot it with precision for my pesting and it is all I need.

Actually ~12fpe using Crosman CPUM 10.5 pellets is more than enough power for my needs as I have to be careful of every shot given that I shoot in my back yard because I have close neighbors, so back stops and the possibility of ricochet has to always be considered before I take a shot. Not to mention, the Fortitude is pretty quiet.

I do like to dream about owning a "bleeding edge" airgun, but the reality is that I don't need nor can I afford one. Oh well... (smile)

P.S.

This pursuit of more and more power baffles me. Precision is everything just like in real estate... location, location, location! (chuckle)

 

[Richieg]

Well, in all fairness, the new Alpha Wolf is $3,600. The Delta Wolf is $3,400. I had one of the first ones (.25 cal.) and it did have growing pains, but AoA/Daystate made it right .

The first few iterations of the Delta did indeed have unforeseen issues. Software and Hardware have been in a constant state of up grading and improving.

I do not doubt AOA making it right, but who wants to spend that kind of money and then have to send it across the United States, and take your chances with any carrier you choose, to be fixed several times? It seems the rifles are put out there with issues that should have been addressed before release. That's a issue with Daystate. Love the rifle....but if history repeats itsrlf, I will wait to see what unforseen issues will likely arise in the first few batches of the Alpha Wolf.

 

[Stone02]

Anyone know whether the issue of low MV for the first shot been corrected with the DAW ?

Not a problem for paper punchers, but a deal breaker for the rest of us.

 

[Maineiac]

That's a issue with Daystate. Love the rifle....but if history repeats itsrlf, I will wait to see what unforseen issues will likely arise in the first few batches of the Alpha Wolf.

In all fairness, all new platforms have these problems at launch. Remember how many issues needed ironed out with the Impact when it was new?

The good thing about the Alpha Wolf is that it’s really a Delta Wolf mark 2. The block and electronics are the same as the Delta and it has the latest software. I would have no reservations buying a Delta or Alpha today now that there’s been over a year to work out the bugs.

@RB-AOA and his staff at AoA took their time prepping my recent Delta Wolf purchase prior to shipping to make sure it had the latest hardware and software updates. It’s basically an Alpha Wolf without the laminate stock. 

 

[Richieg]

That's a issue with Daystate. Love the rifle....but if history repeats itsrlf, I will wait to see what unforseen issues will likely arise in the first few batches of the Alpha Wolf.

In all fairness, all new platforms have these problems at launch. Remember how many issues needed ironed out with the Impact when it was new?

So that's supposed to make it ok to release a high dollar air rifle before it's had all it issues worked out? Call it what you will, but when any of these manufacturers release their new air rifles knowing they are not ready for prime time, as far as I'm concerned is bad FRICKEN business to the customers who now have to try to get them working right by shipping them back and forth or trying to get help over the phone...and we all know how flawless that works out.

 

[Smitty911]

"Richieg In all fairness, all new platforms have these problems at launch. Remember how many issues needed ironed out with the Impact when it was new?

So that's supposed to make it ok to release a high dollar air rifle before it's had all it issues worked out? Call it what you will, but when any of these manufacturers release their new air rifles knowing they are not ready for prime time, as far as I'm concerned is bad FRICKEN business to the customers who now have to try to get them working right by shipping them back and forth or trying to get help over the phone…and we all know how flawless that works out."

Not sure that's a real statement. I've been working at a Test Engineer/Technician for the last 18 years, with the countries largest independent test lab. We work with all the Primes, Telecom, Industrial, etc. etc. I can guarantee you that if they had to send these rifles out for 100% testing it would add thousands of dollars to the end price. Each component would be tested independently than as a system. Normally several units are sent and tested and report generated and modifications made. How many iterations are you willing to pay for to ensure you get a 100% working unit? What kind of life expectancy should they design for? How long of a warranty should be offered?

You have release what you have at a certain level or you'll never sell one and the doors will be closed.

Smitty

 

[HogKiller]

I stopped at Windows.

 

[Richieg]

I can guarantee you that if they had to send these rifles out for 100% testing it would add thousands of dollars to the end price. Each component would be tested independently than as a system. Normally several units are sent and tested and report generated and modifications made. How many iterations are you willing to pay for to ensure you get a 100% working unit? What kind of life expectancy should they design for? How long of a warranty should be offered?

You have release what you have at a certain level or you'll never sell one and the doors will be closed.

Smitty

I expect to get EXACTLY what I paid for. And I expect it to work EXACTLY as it is advertised , nothing more and nothing less. You can sugar coat it anyway that makes you feel better.BUT I do believe there are others that share the same sentiment about buying any air rifle that performs below what is advertised or expected from any manufacturer..then to be told it's all ok, that's just how things like this go, we have just a few minor glitches to work out and we can't possibly make sure it's ready for prime time before we start selling the product, BECAUSE taking the time to make sure all the bugs are worked out before being released...would bankrupt the company and shut its doors or add thousands of dollars to the cost of the rifle. C'mon REALLY? 

 

[Este]

there are not many, but what there are are giving a lot to talk about

another damaged

 

[Maineiac]

I can guarantee you that if they had to send these rifles out for 100% testing it would add thousands of dollars to the end price. Each component would be tested independently than as a system. Normally several units are sent and tested and report generated and modifications made. How many iterations are you willing to pay for to ensure you get a 100% working unit? What kind of life expectancy should they design for? How long of a warranty should be offered?

You have release what you have at a certain level or you'll never sell one and the doors will be closed.

Smitty

I expect to get EXACTLY what I paid for. And I expect it to work EXACTLY as it is advertised , nothing more and nothing less. You can sugar coat it anyway that makes you feel better.BUT I do believe there are others that share the same sentiment about buying any air rifle that performs below what is advertised or expected from any manufacturer..then to be told it's all ok, that's just how things like this go, we have just a few minor glitches to work out and we can't possibly make sure it's ready for prime time before we start selling the product, BECAUSE taking the time to make sure all the bugs are worked out before being released...would bankrupt the company and shut its doors or add thousands of dollars to the cost of the rifle. C'mon REALLY?

I think what he’s saying is that if you test indefinitely then the company will never release a product and thus not make any money. No matter how much you test internally, customers will always find new and interesting ways to break your products.

First generations of any product have more issues than later revisions. Cars, electronics, guns, etc. Being an early adopter is a risk. A good company stands behind their stuff and makes it right. Daystate has a 5 year warranty in the US which should take care of the early adopters.

 

[_CTAIRGUNNER_]

Well looks like I'll have to run a whole bunch of slugs through mine, it should be here end of this week beginning of next.

 

[Smitty911]

I can guarantee you that if they had to send these rifles out for 100% testing it would add thousands of dollars to the end price. Each component would be tested independently than as a system. Normally several units are sent and tested and report generated and modifications made. How many iterations are you willing to pay for to ensure you get a 100% working unit? What kind of life expectancy should they design for? How long of a warranty should be offered?

You have release what you have at a certain level or you'll never sell one and the doors will be closed.

Smitty

I expect to get EXACTLY what I paid for. And I expect it to work EXACTLY as it is advertised , nothing more and nothing less. You can sugar coat it anyway that makes you feel better.BUT I do believe there are others that share the same sentiment about buying any air rifle that performs below what is advertised or expected from any manufacturer..then to be told it's all ok, that's just how things like this go, we have just a few minor glitches to work out and we can't possibly make sure it's ready for prime time before we start selling the product, BECAUSE taking the time to make sure all the bugs are worked out before being released...would bankrupt the company and shut its doors or add thousands of dollars to the cost of the rifle. C'mon REALLY?

Not trying to start a pissing contest, but I'm not sure what your reaching for, things go wrong, ever bought a New Car? New Home? Appliances? Voted for a President? 

There are way too many examples of products coming out on the market too soon, I bought a Cannondale Speed ATV, for around $8,500 in 2002. It had bearing issues with the Crank (using a Suzuki rod bearing with one extra roller solved the problem). I was fully aware that it was a newer company, and had many FIRST TIMES for an ATV. At the time it out performed Honda, Suzuki, Bombardier, etc. etc. 

You have to start selling products at some point, 100 samples, 1,000 samples, 10,000 sample size before you release a product? I'm not aware of any product that has ever been release which was Perfect, that's why they have a warranty. Say they did in house or sent it to a company like mine to test, they send 10 samples, once they are ready for Qualification (Who knows what those numbers are). They (we) put them through all the design parameters and they pass 100% each test with no issues. They start sending them out to clients. Most people realize there is something in electronics called "infant mortality", that out of a certain number of pieces (IIRC 2%) those parts will fail within the first 30 days. One of the reasons that most electronics have a 90 day warranty. Luther Walter Barrels, they have made probably hundreds of thousands of barrels, do they all shoot sub MOA? What about mechanical tolerance stack, ever get a product that had parts on both ends of that little issue?

The advertisement - From the Daystate Website "

THE DELTA WOLF


THE MOST ADVANCED AIRGUN OF ALL TIME

Delta Wolf is the air rifle of the future, here today… and future-proofed for tomorrow. Delta Wolf is the first Daystate to adopt an advanced tactical form factor that has proven popular with shooters across multiple disciplines. Delta Wolf is the first ‘smart’ airgun that can automatically adjust to suit the shooter’s needs."

So which part of their advertisement wasn't lived up to? Future Proofed? I believe the Firmware/Software can be updated - Met. Advanced Tactical Form - True and Popular - Met. "Smart" airgun that can automatically adjust to suit shooter's need? Built in Chrono, programmable FPS based on pellet weight - Met

Do some of them have issues? Sure
Are they being repaired, replace or returned? If so, well than I don't know what to say, Daystate seems to be taking care of the issue.

I can tell you in all honesty, as someone who is actively trying to launch their own product, that it takes large numbers of different people using a product to find all the bugs to be worked out. The product I'm working on, is as good as I know how to make it, with all the testing of Aerospace, Telcomm, Commerial, etc. I've gathered I still won't know if it's 100% and requires no further revisions until it's been in the field for a year or two. So should I continue to work on it or put it into production? I've already spent well over 6 figures getting it to the point where it works incredibly well. Or spend another two years drop $200,000 for tooling and then another $50,000 for test units to be given away and reviewed?

Smitty

 

[battson34]

Work of art, if they only shot as well as they look.

 

[_CTAIRGUNNER_]

Work of art, if they only shot as well as they look.

Seen a handful of instances out past 100 yards very accurately during my research. 

 

[Richieg]

Smitty911

So which part of their advertisement wasn't lived up to?

Seems like the original core of the text has geared off course.

I never said anything negative about the Alpha Wolf or AOA and Daystate didn't fix all the issues that came up, AOA has always done good in that department.There were issues with the Delta Wolf that had to be fixed, and I said let's see if The Alpha wolf has those issues all taken care of. This statement was a blanket statement, I said that when I buy a air rifle, I expect it to perform like it was advertised without ME having to send it back and forth getting the bugs figured out. Every product can have a few lemons, thats a few...Maybe you don't mind shipping your air rifle across the country, to be repaired under warranty, but after having few damaged ....I do mind. And when manufacturers, any, release a product knowing there are issues, that can or will need to be fixed under warranty, is bad business for a consumer. I'm hoping everything is great with the Alpha and it performs like it was intended to perform. I hope those who buy some of the first ones made will share how it performs. I like the looks of the Alpha Wolf and it's tuneability to different pellets. 

 

[_CTAIRGUNNER_]

Smitty911

So which part of their advertisement wasn't lived up to?

Seems like the original core of the text has geared off course.

I never said anything negative about the Alpha Wolf or AOA and Daystate didn't fix all the issues that came up, AOA has always done good in that department.There were issues with the Delta Wolf that had to be fixed, and I said let's see if The Alpha wolf has those issues all taken care of. This statement was a blanket statement, I said that when I buy a air rifle, I expect it to perform like it was advertised without ME having to send it back and forth getting the bugs figured out. Every product can have a few lemons, thats a few...Maybe you don't mind shipping your air rifle across the country, to be repaired under warranty, but after having few damaged ....I do mind. And when manufacturers, any, release a product knowing there are issues, that can or will need to be fixed under warranty, is bad business for a consumer. I'm hoping everything is great with the Alpha and it performs like it was intended to perform. I hope those who buy some of the first ones made will share how it performs. I like the looks of the Alpha Wolf and it's tuneability to different pellets.

The first ones made would have been the first string of DW, the AW has all the updates , improvements, etc.

 

[JungleShooter]

After I overcame the sticker price shock... — I haver come around and conclude that I wouldn't mind shooting worthless rats (with tails or wings) with a gun worth 3 and a half grand...!



(Of course, I could neither afford it, nor could I ever get myself to spend that much money on an airgun.... — but that's just my problem. )

Nice how our AG technology is advancing — we have a bright future!!

Matthias

 

[napairgunner]

As a software programmer I would never want an electronic gun too many things to go wrong you have no control over, I want I gun can just shoot and make my own repair to if needed to do firmware updates to fix issues that could "brick" the gun. The cost is less about the high number and more about the value. For $3,600 bought a used BP FX Royale 500 with 10x40 scope $1,400, and Walnut Royale 400 with 2 barrels (ST and WL) $1,000 and a .new 25 FX Classic Dreamline $1,050 for less than one of these. All will shoot for what I need just as good as one of these AW's.

Unless you are using this rifle to win a competition like EBR or RMAC and you feel it can actually help you win by wringing out the last ounce of accuracy I just don't see the "value" spending the money on something like this when there are plenty of high quality accurate airguns to be had for far less. It's an interesting example of the merger of technology and air rifle engineering but doesn't seem to be practical as others have said for 99% of the people who want to enjoy the sport of shooting air rifles.

 

[MarineO6]

Too much technology? Pretty cool though.

 

[Gnmurphy99]

Pretty sweet