Daystate THE DAYSTATE PROGRAMMER-LET'S TALK ABOUT (PROPERLY) PROGRAMMING THE REDWOLF

[Spray1Mark]

Dear all, after discussions with members on AGN and comments by some recently, I am going to start a thread discussing the programming of the DAYSTATE REDWOLF using the handheld programmer.

This will be a fun Q&A hopefully, please post questions on the thread for all to see, not via PM as it will create much more work.

I realise there are some master tuners on here, probably with knowledge above mine and I am not trying to teach them to suck eggs, it's just about helping those that struggle with the "correct" method of doing it, there are other methods, such as simply changing the current values in the program on your gun, but in reality they could be viewed as more of "guesswork" although not wrong.

I also will try not to type pages of dull boring information, that sends you to sleep rather than capture your interest!

 

[Spray1Mark]

Limitations of the DAYSTATE REDWOLF!

So you may or may not know that the REDWOLF (RW from here on) has a sensor in the plenum which measures bottle pressure, it uses a program to convert the bottle pressure into a time that the the coil is energised to propel the hammer at a specific voltage.

The GCU2 board has the ability to run (SAFELY) within it's limitations to around 84 volts 935 BITS (GCU2 ONLY), voltage ultimately determines power, running above this voltage could limit the life of the capacitors. We also presume that you have will the hardened hammer fitted to your gun, the GCU1 has smaller capacitors and in fact the same program run from GCU1 to GCU2 would usually result in more power without changing any values.

So in a nutshell, the VELOCITY (or power if you include the pellet or slug weight) is limited by the LOWEST pressure in the bottle which will propel the pellet at your chosen speed, when the VOLTAGE and PULSE LENGTH, no longer have an increasing effect on that velocity.

I hope that makes sense? if you want any pictures posted at this point of anything mentioned please let me know.

 

[Spray1Mark]

So what this ultimately means to a RW user who wants to program, lets choose the .22 calibre 25g JSB MONSTER redesign shooter wants to launch his pellet around 970FPS for the best performance at 100 yards (or more), we are talking SPECIFICALLY about the RW and it's factory ART barrels and their twist rates here, no other gun.

Is that; you are limited to what bottle pressure will allow you to shoot the 25g RD at 970 FPS IN YOUR SPECIFIC RW! now typcially this is around 200 bar for most RW built to 65FPE specs, or SAFARI if you want to call it that, by your specific RW I mean the tolerances in the gun that affect power, these generally are;

1) Breech block transfer port size

2) Barrel transfer port size

3) Valve block orifice size

4) Valve core orifice size

5) Electronics, i.e. how efficient your coil and capacitors are etc.

6) Other mechanics, your springs and valve pin fit etc.

7) Your specific barrel, during testing I find variance of upto 40 feet per second between RW barrels, common to most LW barrels I suspect.

 

[Spray1Mark]

Much has been made of the DAYSTATE factory in the UK setting each RW up individually and this is true, it's simply down to the tolerances above, no two guns are the same, hence Michael was at great pains in his first video on programming to make sure you note down your guns specific values, as did Steve on his AEAC video.

Therefore simply transferring a program across from one gun to another can result in some very odd numbers in the shot string, but it can be a good starting point, especially if you dont have an idea of the generic values used.

So what does every RW shooter want along with power, well of course it's a low ES over the entire shot string, here is the second limiting factor of the RW.

So if we want to generate 970 PFS and we can do that as low as 202 bar for instance, then 48 bar is availible to us as head pressure (based on 250 bar INOCOM carbon bottle SWP) and how efficient the gun is running will determine the number of shots we get.

Some of you with 65 FPE RW may have noticed that the velocity drops with the number of shots in the string, it's very consistent in it's decline, for instance you may start at 1000 FPS with the 25g JSB but at shot 30 you may be down to 950-960 FPS, this is the limitation of the gun and potentially the programming being demonstrated.

Counter intuitively the way to program is to accept the lower velocity value and work with it, i.e. program for 960 as your target value and see how many shots you can get within a 10 FPS spread, working in this way will increase your confidence with how the gun actually interperets the values in the curve/slope and corrects for them.

 

[Spray1Mark]

So lets get into the programmer itself!

You start with this screen,

Navigate to this screen using the down arrow,

Press enter to open this menu!

 

[Spray1Mark]

Now some of you may be totally unfimiliar with this menu, but now you know it exists we can explain it's function and they are!



1) Test the velocity of the gun based on a specific pressure in the bottle and a specific pulse length

2) Monitoring how the curve is affecting the velocity over the shot string

3) Confirm that the pressure in the gun is exactly the value that you are taking the shot at

4) And a couple of others which we will go into later, pre-conditioning is for brand new boards when being installed.

 

[Spray1Mark]

So we should always use the "SET UP USING FIXED PL" to tune the gun and need the following;

1) Chronograph

2) pen and pad

3) External regulator and SCBA bottle if you have them, not esential but it makes the whole process easier



The process is such;

1) The gun has X presssure in the bottle, lets presume it's 200 bar, for clarity we are regarding this as your LOW PRESSSURE POINT value in the program

2) You tell the programmer the pulse length and voltage for a specific pressure and fire the gun and record the velocity you get

3) At this specific pressure you can test any pulse length and voltage your imagination allows you to!

PLEASE TAKE NOTE!!!!!!!!!!!

Using this menu will allow the gun to keep firing without being cocked, you have been warned!

4) You increase the pressure in the gun, lets say to 226 bar and repeat the process and record the velocity, we are regarding this as the MID PRESSURE POINT

5) Increase pressure again to 250 bar and repeat, this will be your HIGH PRESSURE POINT

At this point you are trying to determine the following,

What pulse length is required at a SPECIFIC voltage and pressure, to acheive a set velocity, lets say for instance as above 960 FPS.

With this information you will input back into a curve and then fire a complete shot string and record the Average velocity and Extreme spread.

The following things will be obvious;

1) When the pressure increases the pulse length MUST be increased to obtain the same velocity as a lower pressure

2) It is NOT linear

3) Refer to point 2 as the important factor here, I explain below.

 

[Spray1Mark]

So initially when many excellent videos were made the following guidance was given, the 3 curves were related, they are NOT, you can have any of the three factory curves outputting anything you like, in whatever sequence you like, i.e. DSP3 can be the highest power and DSP1 the lowest, it doesn't matter, all three can in fact be the same.

Secondly that the pulse length values were always to be changed using the same difference, this is absolutely not the case and if you think about point three above you will understand why, simply put the pulse length at a specific voltage and pressure is NOT linear across the shot string because at a higher pressure the valve can be much more difficult to open, low pressure point and mid pressure point in fact can have quite close pulse length values yet high pressure point may be much longer in order to compensate for pressure, especially at 250 bar.

I hope this is all clear so far, please feel free at this point to question anything that doesn't make sense to you, no matter how stupid it may sound, or in fact correct anything you dont agree with, including your own experiences, I am a sales rep I dont write technical manuals for a living LOL!

 

[tommyb]

Mark

Excellent documentation!

I don’t have the Programmer for my Red Wolf Safari HP .22, but this information would be very helpful to me if I was to buy one. You went through a lot of effort to document all of this useful information. I am shooting the MRDs at 970 FPS on Medium power and JSB KO’s at 945 FPS on Medium. Coincidentally, these two projectiles shoot very accurately with the factory set parameters. My application is strictly Bench Rest at 50, 75 and 100 yards. Some day I may choose to experiment with either the Programmer or Heliboard. 

Thanks for the great job! 


Tom 

 

[Spray1Mark]

SCBA bottle and regulator (same as The Airgun Scientist sells)

Gun tethered and connected to programmer, battery cable tied to triggerguard

Programmer and sheet and chrono ( note I now use a CALDWELL G2 with software) and rubber mulch in plastic container as backstop

 

[Spray1Mark]

Thanks tommyb, hopefully we can encourage RW owners to tinker with a bit more confidence (pardon the pun with bit) I was very reluctant to fiddle at first but found the more I did it the more I enjoyed it!

 

[Spray1Mark]

As far as the pictures above, I program a lot, hence for me the regulator is invaluable, what you get is the same pressure in the gun every shot you take, otherwise if you dont use this method, be aware that your pressure is changing (or dropping) with every shot so you need to compensate for it.

I have also found that the G2 CALDWELL chrono is by far the best I have owned and used, radar type chrono's can be very sensitive to objects in front of them if used indoors.

https://www.caldwellshooting.com/range-gear/chronographs-and-wind-meters/ballistic-precision-g2-chronograph-with-220v-adapter/720002.html

The software is very user friendly in conjunction with your mobile and allows you to record all the data and even input it into XL to draw a graph if you want.

Here is a string with unweighed pellets, you can also use the CSV file, the string can be sent via txt or email to anyone


Description: REDWOLF.30
Bullet Weight(gr): 44.75
Temp: 9 °C
BP: 1015.00 inHg
Altitude: 0.00
# FPS FT-LBS PF
30 866 74.53 38.75 
29 865 74.36 38.71 
28 864 74.19 38.66 
27 863 74.02 38.62 
26 867 74.70 38.80 
25 864 74.19 38.66 
24 865 74.36 38.71 
23 867 74.70 38.80 
22 867 74.70 38.80 
21 863 74.02 38.62 
20 865 74.36 38.71 
19 864 74.19 38.66 
18 866 74.53 38.75 
17 869 75.05 38.89 
16 861 73.67 38.53 
15 865 74.36 38.71 
14 864 74.19 38.66 
13 863 74.02 38.62 
12 866 74.53 38.75 
11 867 74.70 38.80 
10 862 73.85 38.57 
9 864 74.19 38.66 
8 864 74.19 38.66 
7 865 74.36 38.71 
6 863 74.02 38.62 
5 864 74.19 38.66 
4 863 74.02 38.62 
3 864 74.19 38.66 
2 866 74.53 38.75 
1 867 74.70 38.80 
Average: 864.8 FPS
SD: 1.8 FPS
Min: 861 FPS
Max: 869 FPS
Spread: 8 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.1
True MV: 865 FPS
Group Size (in): 0.00

View attachment csvfile.1626709335.csv

 

[Arzrover]

Very well thought out explanation, Spray1Mark !

Bob

 

[Spray1Mark]

Thanks Bob, I was hoping you might chip in with some thoughts and comments or anything I miss?

 

[Motorhead]

HELIBOARD .... requires no external programmer, far more power levels and tuning parameters possible.



Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Arzrover]

You're doing GREAT ! Not sure what I could really add to that. I did remote the cable through the battery compartment so I could tune and test in the stock... but....

after trying the Heliboard, I enjoyed the combination of features and programming ease enough to equip all 3 of ours and have been running them that way for a while.

I know you like the GCU2 better and I still get called on to tinker with someone's factory board occasionally. I do really like your methodical presentation.

Bob

 

[Davec107]

Great write up Mark, thank you for sharing your knowledge on the proper way to program. I was able to use your method and flatten my shot string with only taking a few shots at each of my pressure points. No doubt with a little tickling of the numbers I will be in single digit ES over 45 shots...



Dave

 

[wWilliam]

Just bought a red wolf. Still waiting on scope. Ive been reading this post and its a lot to take in for a newbe. . I have been playing with my Fx m3 and just starting to get the tuning part. Im going to be using these guns for bench rest 50, 75 100. I will be going to the big competitions next year . I hope I will be ready. I live in Stuart Florida and have a 500 yd range and would like to shoot with other benchrest shooters, so if your near me and want to start a team ring me up. Thanks William Squillace

 

[Spray1Mark]

Hi wWilliam, glad to hear you joined the RW club, you will love it! yes I agree it's a lot to take in, those who have tinkered already may find the info more useful.

 

[Spray1Mark]

HELIBOARD .... requires no external programmer, far more power levels and tuning parameters possible.



Don't shoot the messenger.

Yes I dabbled with the Heli and Jan made me a couple of 96v boards to try, trouble is the RW aren't really upto the power that can generate, I managed almost 80FPE in .22 with a 34g JSB Beast, but the safety screws etc. just couldn't handle it and sheared.

Thing I didnt like about the Heli was the seperate switch.