N/A The elusive airgun that AVERAGES 100 yard sub moa groups.

[Vana2]

Repeatability is the key to shooting nirvana. I have shot some awesome groups at 100 yards with my .177 shooting Zan 16 grain slugs, but then the next day not as great. Was it the gun? Me? projectiles? Conditions?

When you can, day in and day, out shoot similar groups, you have achieved the elusive goal. Nice post.

*** but then the next day not as great. Was it the gun? Me? projectiles? Conditions? ***

But then that's what keeps us coming back the next day and the next eh?

It gets boring if it's too easy, that's why I keep on moving my targets back.

Cheers!

 

[Franklink]

@thomasair, I think I'll drop the moderator back off the gun, get centered on a bull and try the 25shots-into-one-bull concept.

I think it might be interesting to compare 25 back to back shots and also another 25 where I'm taking sighters shots somewhere else on the paper, to account for changes in the wind. I'd bet the 25 with unlimited sighters elsewhere will be a better group.

 

[steve123]

That's a great pcp and slug combo you've found Cole! Especially at such low fpe.

Just for the fun of it check this thread out.

6X5 Thread V5.0 *new 1/1/21*

Hey guys welcome back to the "NEW OLD HIDE", its good to be home! So getting back to business I am starting the 6X5 thread over from scratch. Same rules: Rules are pretty simple. There must be exactly six groups of 5 shots, all on one target board. No more, no less. Every shot on the group...

www.snipershide.com

 

[thomasair]

Hi Cole, that group was shot under unusual circumstances. I was trying to demonstrate to a forum know it all that I often got smaller moa groups at 100y than 50 with these slugs.

For that test I took one shot at 50 followed by 1 shot at 100 and alternated back and forth until each group had 25 shots. I’m sure I figured out my clicks for 100 before I began…but I did not take any sighters once I started the test.

Here is the companion 50y target if anyone cares.

I think it would be good to do a comparison of 25 shot groups on a single bull with unlimited sighters and without.

Mike

 

[Franklink]

That's a great pcp and slug combo you've found Cole! Especially at such low fpe.

Just for the fun of it check this thread out.

6X5 Thread V5.0 *new 1/1/21*

Hey guys welcome back to the "NEW OLD HIDE", its good to be home! So getting back to business I am starting the 6X5 thread over from scratch. Same rules: Rules are pretty simple. There must be exactly six groups of 5 shots, all on one target board. No more, no less. Every shot on the group...

www.snipershide.com

Very cool. I skimmed through the first couple pages but it's gonna need a more thorough perusal. VERY similar idea though.

 

[Franklink]

@thomasair,

I vaguely remember that discussion from a few years ago. Not sure if these slugs help that argument, one way or the other, they seem to shoot about 1/2" groups @ 50-55yards. And, well, at 100 they shoot like the three pages of 100yard results that I've shared so far (slightly better than moa).

The difference between a sighter guided group and back to back is likely going to increase with an individuals use of wind flags, and the experience-based knowledge of how to use them. Neither of which I have, lol. I'm not so sure I'd do much better with sighters, but I'll give it a try sometime.

 

[thomasair]

Cole, I understand. I’m very in tune with my flags.

My experiment was simply to show a frequent observation of mine…which I demonstrated on command first try. The interesting part is that I never observe this with my own slugs.

Mike

 

[Franklink]

I really should have given credit to @Arzrover for this in the original post.

Seems to me that stand-out examples of accuracy require exceptional barrels and exceptionally knowledgeable machinists that also possess knowledge about barrels. The barrel and the machining skills and barrel knowledge all came from Bobby. I've credited him for this project in the ongoing Ghost review but really should have here as well.

I'm always torn on acknowledging him excessively. He doesn't run a machining business nor take on machining jobs so I'm hesitant to mention his name, for fear of inundating him with requests. But I also feel like a jerk when I don't divulge the source of the barrel and machining.

First field target match I ever attended was at Bobby's house. He took me in, showed me the ropes, and continues to patiently field my never-ending questions. A lot of friendship and imparted knowledge has come my way from him.

Thank you Bobby C. Wouldn't be enjoying the accuracy of the .20 slugs without you. And truth be told, I wouldn't be nearly as deep into airgunning were it not for you.

 

[tommyb]

Cole

I got out today at my 100Y range with the FX Boss .30 caliber shooting the JSB 44g. Had two flags deployed, wind was light when I started and then picked up a bit. However, my Kestrel had an average of 2.5 mph from the bench, but I tried to pick my holds.

Boss .30 Caliber with ST barrel
Sightron Mil dot 10X50X60MM
Accu-tac Bipod
Rear Protektor bag
Pellets - non sorted or sized

I shot a total of 17 five-shot groups across 5 EBR cards. I annotated what I did on each card. My total 17-card average CTC was just around 2" - Math was 33.85 / 17 groups - 1.99". No MOA groups today, but I had two or three that were slightly over an inch.

Some interesting finds: I shot two EBR cards to test shooting 1) without wind adjustment ( same POA for all five bulls); and then 2) with adjusting for wind and trying for score. When measured for score, the one without the wind adjustment was better at 213. The 209 was worse with adjusting for wind. Ha Ha, I knew I couldn't read those stupid flags!

I also shoat a 25 shot group ( see attached ) and about half of the pellets were about 2" CTC.

I would have thought I had an advantage over your .20 caliber Ghost, but no so! I'm just pulling your chain, as I knew I could not come close. There were times when I did get a bead on the wind holds, but then my skill would vanish as quickly as it came.

re. Benjamin Marauder .20 cal. I spoke to the owner Master Smith, Rich this morning for 30 minutes. Very helpful and I will be buying his custom .20 machined Marauder Lothar Walther barrel/combo shooting the JSB 15.89 very accurately out to 40 yards, according to Rich Dudek, Airgun Revsions. He has a FT Challenger .177 that is slightly more accurate, but given I want to shoot 30-50Y paper target challenges, we both felt .20 caliber was the way to go.

Thanks for the heads up!

Tom

 

[Franklink]

@tommyb, you've got some quite good groups in there. Thanks for sharing so many consecutive groups, not many shooters are willing to do so.

In the past I've tried what you did, NOT jumping around for my wind guestimation, and comparing it to how I do when I DO jump around for on the fly wind adjustments. And I've found what you seem to have seen in this session: that groups are usually about the same, whether I'm trying to "read" the wind, or not. So I typically figure out what the prevalent wind is doing to my shots with a few sighters, and then hold there for all the counted shots. Ie, if it pushed most of the sighters 0.2 or 0.4mils to the left, then I hold (or dial) 0.2-.04mils to the right. Reading the wind and making on the fly adjustments is certainly a skill. And reading and using wind flags to make adjustments is an even greater skill, and one that I don't possess.

I'm very interested to see how the .20 Marauder from Airgun Revisions shoots, please share the accuracy results.

 

[tommyb]

@tommyb, you've got some quite good groups in there. Thanks for sharing so many consecutive groups, not many shooters are willing to do so.

In the past I've tried what you did, NOT jumping around for my wind guestimation, and comparing it to how I do when I DO jump around for on the fly wind adjustments. And I've found what you seem to have seen in this session: that groups are usually about the same, whether I'm trying to "read" the wind, or not. So I typically figure out what the prevalent wind is doing to my shots with a few sighters, and then hold there for all the counted shots. Ie, if it pushed most of the sighters 0.2 or 0.4mils to the left, then I hold (or dial) 0.2-.04mils to the right. Reading the wind and making on the fly adjustments is certainly a skill. And reading and using wind flags to make adjustments is an even greater skill, and one that I don't possess.

I'm very interested to see how the .20 Marauder from Airgun Revisions shoots, please share the accuracy results.

Thanks Cole.

Actually, I like the idea of trying to use a couple of sighters to figure out the prevailing wind; and then adjust my hold and this is important - “Stick to it!”

I tend to adjust my hold two, three or four times while shooting target bulls based on POI shifts. Then, to make it worse, sometimes I keep adjusting my scope zero with both elevation and windage adjustments to try and get back to the 10 ring using a sighter. This might work for a few shots, then I get a six or a miss. I went through 200 pellets today and a whole lotta air.

I think you are clearly saying to ‘hold the line,’ and get a fix on prevalent wind and then adjust and ‘stay’ with that prevailing wind hold adjustment. I need to try this and stop chasing a ghost.

Re. new Marauder .20 cal. Rich told me that he tunes the .20 cal 15.89 with the SSG to 880 FPS, and he told me to leave it alone. Sort of like the Daystate Revere, leave it alone. He said he can/will add 1.2”- 20 UNF to add a moderator if I want.

I may be ordering this new .20 soon.

 

[Franklink]

Thanks Cole.

Actually, I like the idea of trying to use a couple of sighters to figure out the prevailing wind; and then adjust my hold and this is important - “Stick to it!”

I tend to adjust my hold two, three or four times while shooting target bulls based on POI shifts. Then, to make it worse, sometimes I keep adjusting my scope zero with both elevation and windage adjustments to try and get back to the 10 ring using a sighter. This might work for a few shots, then I get a six or a miss. I went through 200 pellets today and a whole lotta air.

I think you are clearly saying to ‘hold the line,’ and get a fix on prevalent wind and then adjust and ‘stay’ with that prevailing wind hold adjustment. I need to try this and stop chasing a ghost.

Lol, my tactics aren't necessarily going to be endorsed by those that are actually talented benchresters. Those guys are watching their flags and have shot over them enough to actually know how to adjust their aim point accordingly.

Personally, and especially pellets at 100 yards, I feel like I'm chasing my own tail if I try to adjust for wind alot. The term "prevalent wind" is my way of playing the averages. If the wind is pushing most of the shots down and right, say 0.2mil, then I consider that the prevalent wind. The problem with pellets @ 100 yards is that the random stray ones make me think the wind pushed it the other direction so then I hold over there, and then it's even farther from desired impact point. Chasing my own tail. Results seem just as good (or better) to figure out prevalent wind, and hold for that, and assume the shots not going there are flyers.

But again, I'm not a benchrest guy, and realize these are probably radical and naive thoughts, from their perspective.

 

[tommyb]

I can totally relate to your last post. But, part of the fun/ challenge for me is trying to learn from others; applying their ideas, and seeing the results.

At some point, I may buy a 100Y Slug airgun, but right now the Boss and EVOL Paradigm are primarily for shooting pellets. Although, I know others shoot slugs with the Paradigm.

 

[tommyb]

Thanks Cole.

Actually, I like the idea of trying to use a couple of sighters to figure out the prevailing wind; and then adjust my hold and this is important - “Stick to it!”

I tend to adjust my hold two, three or four times while shooting target bulls based on POI shifts. Then, to make it worse, sometimes I keep adjusting my scope zero with both elevation and windage adjustments to try and get back to the 10 ring using a sighter. This might work for a few shots, then I get a six or a miss. I went through 200 pellets today and a whole lotta air.

I think you are clearly saying to ‘hold the line,’ and get a fix on prevalent wind and then adjust and ‘stay’ with that prevailing wind hold adjustment. I need to try this and stop chasing a ghost.

Re. new Marauder .20 cal. Rich told me that he tunes the .20 cal 15.89 with the SSG to 880 FPS, and he told me to leave it alone. Sort of like the Daystate Revere, leave it alone. He said he can/will add 1.2”- 20 UNF to add a moderator if I want.

I may be ordering this new .20 soon.

A quick update.

I ordered and paid for the .20 cal Marauder from Airgun Revisions. May be a month or two before I get the new rifle. Rich has a monthly window, and he needs to machine the LW barrel and set up and test shoot before I receive.

It’s set up for the JSB.20 cal 15.89 pellet at 880 FPS. Once I break it in at 30-50 yards I will move out and try shooting and measuring groups at 100y. I will wait for a quiet wind day.

Tom

 

[vtl]

Looking at ~1" group at 54 yards, I *think* I may get that .51 AEA to land slugs around 1 MOA at 100. Was shooting with uncomfortable body posture from the tailgate of my truck at 13 F weather with wind gusts up to 30 MPH. Also would need a better scope, x16 magnification is not enough for 100. And of course a regulator. This thing gulps air. Maybe add a muzzle break.

Off the shelf the spread was terrible, but I managed to bring the run out of the barrel to under 0.003".

That's my brother-in-law shooting, just to give a reference that the accuracy can be improved a lot with a better bench setup =)

 

[tommyb]

Went out to shoot my FX Boss .30 at 100Y yesterday. I used the N50 " in the rings " scoring system to score my three 100 attempts.

Interesting in that my average MOA for 75 shots, was 1.25"; but my scoring was not so good. I shot three cards and the best was a 1775, which is a good score for me and this rifle. I did manage to keep most of the shots in pretty tight groups, but I hit the outside ring so many times and that wrecked having a really good score. There were numerous ring/line shots that if they were a hair towards the center would have given me a 100 for the shot vs. a 50.

As others have stated, you need a 1/2 MOA gun to even have a shot at a 2500, or a lot of luck! The Boss shot very well today with the 44G pellets, this gun does not shoot slugs. I had five or six sub-MOA groups in that mix. There was virtually no wind, that I could detect and only a slight breeze at times. The target at bottom with the red bulls, was used for sigting in and testing purposes.

Here is my card(s)

 

[Franklink]

Looking good Tommie. If I'm reading your notes correctly you've got an average 5 shot group size of 1.25." From my personal experiences, that's on the higher end of the spectrum for pellets @ 100 yards.

I shot 7 EBR cards yesterday @ 100 yards from various guns.
The worst 5x6 average (6 groups of five shots each) average card was about 1.8MOA, and that's a gun that I was in the money with at 2022 EBR high power field target. (.22/25.4 MRDS at 890)
The second to worst 5x6 average was 1.48MOA, different gun, but this one was also in the money at the 2023 EBR high power field target (the .20 Ghost with 15.89grain pellets).
The second best was of course the .20 slugs that started this discussion, with a 1.28moa 5x6 average. That was the last group of the day and I had gusts in the 28-32mph range for that one.
The best 5x6 average was 1.13MOA. That one scored a 234 or a 228, depending on keeping the best or worst 5 shot group. One of the better EBR scores I've ever shot with pellets. (.22/25.4 MRDS at 980)

Anyway, the averaging of groups of 5x6 or 5x5 (or more) @ 100 yards seems a pretty good metric for comparing ACTUAL performance, not just cherry picked outliers. And by keeping it 5 shot groups, can also shoot an EBR card on a nice tidy 8x11 sheet of paper to use as an additional comparison point.

So again, your 5x15 average of 1.25" is certainly on the higher end of the spectrum for pellets. Great shooting.

 

[tommyb]

Thank you Cole.

I think this was the best day I had with the Boss .30 at my outdoor range.

Mike’s (CC) luck rubbed off on me with his old gun.

The wind was still and I had just given the barrel a thorough Patchworm cleaning with Gunzilla before I shot the card(s).

If you zoom in to each bull/box, I annotated the average CTC for that 5-shot bull.

I did shoot for score on every one of the 15 bulls, trying to keep 5 shots in the ring and not hitting lines.

Until I walked down to 100 yards, I thought the scores were just so-so, which they were. What I failed to realize was that the 5 shots were pretty tight in each box.

I had a lot of misses ( 25 points ) and box line hits ( zero points); but the gun shot well.

Re. Marauder .20 - should have it after New Year’s, but it ain’t gonna shoot like your BRK. I bought that for 30-40 yards target shooting and squirrels.


Tom

 

[tommyb]

Btw- The .30 caliber makes big holes. And, these bulls were tricky to score and measure. I have 1/2” thick cardboard backing and official N50 card stock 11 X 17” targets. Why, are the holes not more round? They really tear up the paper and I don’t think they are spiraling.

Any ideas?

 

[vtl]

Btw- The .30 caliber makes big holes. And, these bulls were tricky to score and measure. I have 1/2” thick cardboard backing and official N50 card stock 11 X 17” targets. Why, are the holes not more round? They really tear up the paper and I don’t think they are spiraling.

Any ideas?

Perhaps because you pulled it down/sideways slightly for flatness while stapling to the cardboard and created tension one way more than the other. Just a speculation, of course.

My target was fixed with paper clips along upper/lower edges, that created some vertical tension, which was harder for slug to overcome, so it was ripping the paper horizontally. Here me shooting without refilling, you can see slugs started to tear the paper when the pressure dropped quite a bit: