The Next Breakthrough in airguns

[jps2486]

I had the privilege of shooting my friend's newly acquired Huben GK1 pistol. Needless to say, this thing is hugely impressive in many ways such as trigger, rifle like power and shot count.

The thing that impressed me most is how efficient it is in air use. With reasonable power settings, you can get 45 shots per fill in the .22 version or 30 in the .25. With a pissant 85cc air tank, that's phenominal! Whatever they did to control the use of air is truly remarkable IMO. This should be a que to the big airgun manufacturers to start developing their guns for more efficient air useage. Many, if not most, rifles on the current market (higher power and larger caliber) can get only 40-60 shots per fill using 480 or 580 cc air tanks. There sure is a lot of room for development here. If I were a large air rifle manufacturer, I would beg, borrow, or steal a GK1 and tear it apart to see how they did it.

 

[EPG]

Wow, that is amazing efficiency!

Air efficiency advancement is an area I’d love to see manufacturers spending some R&D dollars.

 

[ThomasT]

I had the privilege of shooting my friend's newly acquired Huben GK1 pistol. Needless to say, this thing is hugely impressive in many ways such as trigger, rifle like power and shot count.

The thing that impressed me most is how efficient it is in air use. With reasonable power settings, you can get 45 shots per fill in the .22 version or 30 in the .25. With a pissant 85cc air tank, that's phenominal! Whatever they did to control the use of air is truly remarkable IMO. This should be a que to the big airgun manufacturers to start developing their guns for more efficient air useage. Many, if not most, rifles on the current market (higher power and larger caliber) can get only 40-60 shots per fill using 480 or 580 cc air tanks. There sure is a lot of room for development here. If I were a large air rifle manufacturer, I would beg, borrow, or steal a GK1 and tear it apart to see how they did it.

Hello @jps2486

Thanks for this report. Did you get to do any accuracy shooting and if so, what pellet and what distance?

ThomasT

 

[dizzums]

i think theres lots of potential in sighting systems ... efficiency yeeeeah, but also i think theres a fine line there, with increased efficiency, really theres probably a potential to get them more powerful even than they are now, and before you know it we're regulated into oblivion ...

 

[SpiralGroove]

I had the privilege of shooting my friend's newly acquired Huben GK1 pistol. Needless to say, this thing is hugely impressive in many ways such as trigger, rifle like power and shot count.

The thing that impressed me most is how efficient it is in air use. With reasonable power settings, you can get 45 shots per fill in the .22 version or 30 in the .25. With a pissant 85cc air tank, that's phenominal! Whatever they did to control the use of air is truly remarkable IMO. This should be a que to the big airgun manufacturers to start developing their guns for more efficient air useage. Many, if not most, rifles on the current market (higher power and larger caliber) can get only 40-60 shots per fill using 480 or 580 cc air tanks. There sure is a lot of room for development here. If I were a large air rifle manufacturer, I would beg, borrow, or steal a GK1 and tear it apart to see how they did it.

What velocities do we get in .177, .22 or .25. Just trying to understand the Power level?
But yes, an increase is shot counts is always a good thing.


With RAW HM1000x - 480cc Tank
- In .25 caliber with 34gr. JSBs - 70 shots at 900 fps
- In .22 caliber with 18gr. JSBs - 150 shots at 925 fps, 25 gr. JSBs - 115 shots per fill at 925 fps.
With the RAW, an increased shot count would be nice, but only marginally useful except in certain situations.

 

[thomasair]

You need to compare power levels when comparing apparent efficiency...not just caliber. A light 22 pellet isn't the same as a heavy one. It's not hard to get large shot counts with low power light 22s compared to high power heavy 22.

Most any gun can attain 1.50 fpe/cubic inch with some effort. Getting it to attain 1.5 with tight velocity spreads and temperature insensitivity is a whole nother thing. The more you are willing to compromise on the latter elements...the more efficiency you can attain. Pistols are likely not going to be used for anything more than whacking small game. The standard for effectively accomplishing that is very loose.

What is the efficiency in fpe/ci?

 

[jps2486]

Hello @jps2486

Thanks for this report. Did you get to do any accuracy shooting and if so, what pellet and what distance?

ThomasT

Accuracy is covered very well in other posts on Air Pistols. We were shooting JSB 33.95 gr pellets at 750 fps. For a pistol with a short barrel, that’s fantastic.

 

[SpiralGroove]

What velocities do we get in .177, .22 or .25. Just trying to understand the Power level?
But yes, an increase is shot counts is always a good thing.

- In .25 caliber with 34gr. JSBs - 70 shots at 900 fps
- In .22 caliber with 18gr. JSBs - 150 shots at 925 fps, 25 gr. JSBs - 115 shots per fill at 925 fps.

Accuracy is covered very well in other posts on Air Pistols. We were shooting JSB 33.95 gr pellets at 750 fps. For a pistol with a short barrel, that’s fantastic.

Yes, Impressive .

When comparing to the above RAW numbers, that last 150 fps to reach 900 is going to very much reduce efficient air flow.
Not trying to diminish your statement, but the RAW could likely get 115 shots per fill at 750 fps with the same pellet.
- Also, my numbers assume regulated with good ES.

 

[jps2486]

You need to compare power levels when comparing apparent efficiency...not just caliber. A light 22 pellet isn't the same as a heavy one. It's not hard to get large shot counts with low power light 22s compared to high power heavy 22.

Most any gun can attain 1.50 fpe/cubic inch with some effort. Getting it to attain 1.5 with tight velocity spreads and temperature insensitivity is a whole nother thing. The more you are willing to compromise on the latter elements...the more efficiency you can attain. Pistols are likely not going to be used for anything more than whacking small game. The standard for effectively accomplishing that is very loose.

What is the efficiency in fpe/ci?

Shooting 25 cal JSB 33.95 gr pellets at 750 fps from a 8 inch barrel is pretty awesome. Now, if it’s possible to equate this to rifles, there would be no need for 700 and 800 mm barrels to get good power. I’m not suggesting the attempt to shoot more power as some of these cowboys lust for, but to be able to build rifles with reasonable length barrels and not too large air tanks to attain power levels we currently enjoy with higher shot counts.

 

[thomasair]

Huben makes a rifle...why doesn't it achieve this ground breaking efficiency?

You are taking about apparent efficiency measures in shot count with no respect to any other variables.....not measured efficiency. Filling to high pressures and shooting down well below the reg pressure will produce high apparent efficiency (shot counts) when actual measured efficiency in fpe/ci is nothing new.

Shot count is not efficiency. Measure the efficient in fpe/ci.

Mike

 

[beerthief]

I think the manufactures are building to the buyer's market thinking, as in more power = bigger engine . not as hard to produce as a small engine very efficient in regards to fuel source in any type of fuel (air ) usage.

 

[jps2486]

Huben makes a rifle...why doesn't it achieve this ground breaking efficiency?

You are taking about apparent efficiency measures in shot count with no respect to any other variables.....not measured efficiency. Filling to high pressures and shooting down well below the reg pressure will produce high apparent efficiency (shot counts) when actual measured efficiency in fpe/ci is nothing new.

Shot count is not efficiency. Measure the efficient in fpe/ci.

Mike

Ok, so let’s work on efficiency. Has anyone tested barrels with piezometric instrumentation along every inch just to see what’s happening and how the upstream hardware (valving/plenum) can be improved using different projectiles and varying diameters? If I’m not mistaken, every so far has been done by trial and error.

 

[AirNGasman]

The key is hammerless valve.

 

[thomasair]

You don't need those things to measure efficiency. Accurate fill pressure, accurate end pressure, tank volume, number of shots from start to end, and fpe produced is all that's needed.

Unfortunately, there's a lot of ways that someone can use to embellish those numbers if they aren't careful.

I'm betting no new ground has been broken.

Mike

 

[beerthief]

I do not see any new ground in air guns . Just old technology pushed higher faster . A waste in my opinion . I am much more impressed with someone that takes a sub 12 FPE and light pellet and shoots what is considered an extreme shot many day's in a row and different weather /wind , than i am with a custom designed rifle/slug combo and a target @ 200+ yards on a selected weather day

 

[Pea-shooter O.G.]

Also to consider is the fill pressure. 5,000 PSI on the Huben vs the 3,600 PSI of the RAW. 1400 psi difference is a lot of air.

 

[Motorhead]

Also to consider is the fill pressure. 5,000 PSI on the Huben vs the 3,600 PSI of the RAW. 1400 psi difference is a lot of air.

Not really, as once above @ 3500 psi the amount of air molecules in compression are starting to lose room for more as you compress the pressure to even higher levels.
The AMOUNT of usable air IS NOT PROPORTIONAL to the volume & pressure once above @ 3500 psi .... as it is for pressures under 3500

 

[Pea-shooter O.G.]

Not really, as once above @ 3500 psi the amount of air molecules in compression are starting to lose room for more as you compress the pressure to even higher levels.
The AMOUNT of usable air IS NOT PROPORTIONAL to the volume & pressure once above @ 3500 psi .... as it is for pressures under 3500

Ahh, the law of diminishing returns! Thank you!

 

[weevil]

You need to compare power levels when comparing apparent efficiency...not just caliber. A light 22 pellet isn't the same as a heavy one. It's not hard to get large shot counts with low power light 22s compared to high power heavy 22.

Most any gun can attain 1.50 fpe/cubic inch with some effort. Getting it to attain 1.5 with tight velocity spreads and temperature insensitivity is a whole nother thing. The more you are willing to compromise on the latter elements...the more efficiency you can attain. Pistols are likely not going to be used for anything more than whacking small game. The standard for effectively accomplishing that is very loose.

What is the efficiency in fpe/ci?

I did the math on mine and it was 1.05, shooting 22cal GTOs at 900fps. The test ran from 250-150bar so as to not screw the calc up with a high starting pressure, as explained by Scott.

While the GK1 is truly a generational leap in PCP pistols (and incredibly accurate, to answer ThomasT), it doesn’t have magical efficiency. Mine will get around 30shots from 260bar to 140, with a very consistent speed, then it drops. Obviously, the OPs claim of using “reasonable power” is subjective. My guess is that it’s around 16fpe. Also, while the pistol can be filled to 350bar, any given projectile has a practical window of around 120bar in which the string is flat. I have tested lots of projectiles and this is very consistent, aside from the heaviest slugs (40g in 22 and 51g in 25) at full power, which are on a Korean cliff right away. However, that first shot at 350bar can deliver almost 90fpe out of the .25. With a 9inch barrel!

 

[ThomasT]

I did the math on mine and it was 1.05, shooting 22cal GTOs at 900fps. The test ran from 250-150bar so as to not screw the calc up with a high starting pressure, as explained by Scott.

While the GK1 is truly a generational leap in PCP pistols (and incredibly accurate, to answer ThomasT), it doesn’t have magical efficiency. Mine will get around 30shots from 260bar to 140, with a very consistent speed, then it drops. Obviously, the OPs claim of using “reasonable power” is subjective. My guess is that it’s around 16fpe. Also, while the pistol can be filled to 350bar, any given projectile has a practical window of around 120bar in which the string is flat. I have tested lots of projectiles and this is very consistent, aside from the heaviest slugs (40g in 22 and 51g in 25) at full power, which are on a Korean cliff right away. However, that first shot at 350bar can deliver almost 90fpe out of the .25. With a 9inch barrel!

Hello @weevil

Thank you for the accuracy info.

ThomasT