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Resources The shoulder / Butt question

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In a world where anything was "legal" what would be best?

In my limited experience a grippy rubber pad and a shirt that has little slack or stretch works best to mount a rifle in the right position. For my purposes I honestly don't think a hook over or under would produce anything except awkwardness in mounting the gun.

That's just from a perspective of gross inexperience in a field you guys know much more about. I beg for your patience.

I never thought I'd be saying these words to a bunch of guys on a shooting forum. But please mister. Show me how to use a butt hook.
 
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Bedrock Bob said:
In a world where anything was "legal" what would be best?

In my limited experience a grippy rubber pad and a shirt that has little slack or stretch works best to mount a rifle in the right position. For my purposes I honestly don't think a hook over or under would produce anything except awkwardness in mounting the gun.

That's just from a perspective of gross inexperience in a field you guys know much more about. I beg for your patience.

I never thought I'd be saying these words to a bunch of guys on a shooting forum. But please mister. Show me how to use a butt hook.
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Presently I have never used a hook or extreme butt extension. Since I’m setting up my new HFT rig I’m considering trying one and thus soliciting information. This is what I'm currently using on my Thomas - an MDT factory piece.
IMG_8045.jpeg
 
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cavedweller said:
I would think it simple enough to say anything that extends from the vertical portion of the rifles butt, may not extend into the horizontal plane more than ( insert a measurement ) regardless of the angle.

Glad ya'll are ok... was thinking the forum was a tad sleepy... until now.
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This was one MDs opinion as well. I for one actually agree with this idea for a measurement as well.
 
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shootermeb said:
If a hook is considered common sense and well defined, is this a hook or not a hook? Is the top part of this butt plate a hook? Is the bottom part a hook?

View attachment 487920


I know the image above would not pass the ISSF equipment test for a standard rifle (i.e. 10m air rifle) because the ISSF defines a maximum depth of curve of 20mm for an air rifle butt plate.

The next possible gun configuration is the 50m free rifle, which has a definition of a hook. So what is the definition of "hook" that we should all follow?

View attachment 487928

Seems like their needs to be some clarification regarding this rule since there are people questioning what should be considered a legal butt plate for AAFTA Hunter, a butt plate that is not allowed to have a hook. If we follow ISSF rules, the picture of the 3d printed butt plate does not pass the 50m free rifle allowances at least due to the top part of the butt plate.

I would personally claim the 3d printed butt plate example to not fit within the rules of the hunter class, but there is an entire forum thread that argued about this earlier this year trying to make up parts of the butt plate assembly to circumvent what might be the spirit of the rules. Stuff like "that's not a hook, those are wings", or "the top part is a hanger" and since there is no limit on hangers you can do whatever you want.

I would lean toward defining the butt plate limitation in a way similar to what ISSF states as a standard rifle. Maybe 20mm is too shallow of a depth of curve for AAFTA Hunter, but something along that type of definition would make a measurable and objective rule rather than a subjective rule depending on what a MD thinks is a hook.

In my opinion, the hunter class rifle should resemble what other sports call a standard rifle, however that is not explicitly stated in the AAFTA rules. The rules simply state no butt hooks.

For reference, this is the current AAFTA Hunter rule (Hunter division rules, section "Shooting" part B, page 9 of the 2024 AAFTA rules) - there is no definition declaring what is a hook, or a hanger, or whatever else you might want to call it.

View attachment 487941
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G. Depth of curve of butt plate: 20 mm (.79 inch)
1723564949538.png

https://competitions.nra.org/media/8915/2023-precision-air-rifle-rules.pdf - Page 9
Anything more than .79" I would consider not legal for Hunter.
 
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Centercut said:
Reading over that "2023 precision air rifle rules" from the NRA is a great example of rules out of control. Hopefully AAFTA doesn't move too far in that direction. We started EFT a few years ago and rules are minimal intentionally...
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Thats one reason i like EFT... the lack of too many rules.
The reality is, very few mechanical things other than a superior rifle and scope, actually give the general shooter an advantage unless you factor in AGE, health, strength and training...
More rules are just a pain in the butt... pun intended.
That said if MD's have rules they should be universal throughout the land. IMO of course.
 
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cavedweller said:
In HFT we have rules... yeah i know they suck.... but rules are rules

so

In HFT hooks are generally not allowed but it also comes down to HOW MUCH of a hook we have

Taking this to the logical step in rules

how much angular extension is LEGAL in HFT?

I see no definitive measurements or angles listed by BOG anywhere in the AAFTA rules

so

Match directors are allowed to use their discretion which of course can b subjective and thus vary.

how much length is allowed from the vertical portion of the BUTT
and
How much (measured with a protractor) angle of projection = horizontal extension is allowed.

Whew?
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The AAFTA BOG is considering a rule change to clarify the definition of a buttplate for the Hunter class for next year.
Regards,
Jeff Cloud
AAFTA Chairman
 
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Cloud9AG said:
The AAFTA BOG is considering a rule change to clarify the definition of a buttplate for the Hunter class for next year.
Regards,
Jeff Cloud
AAFTA Chairman
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Post #24 and the "G" specification is a good one giving a differential of max inward and max extension of "wings" or segmented sections of a mechanical or molded butt plate.
 
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Cloud9AG said:
The AAFTA BOG is considering a rule change to clarify the definition of a buttplate for the Hunter class for next year.
Regards,
Jeff Cloud
AAFTA Chairman
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Motorhead said:
Post #24 and the "G" specification is a good one giving a differential of max inward and max extension of "wings" or segmented sections of a mechanical or molded butt plate.
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Out of curiosity I measured "G" on three personal rigs that I don't consider butt-hooks but might be subject to the new rule.
All three are right around an inch, the most being about 1.1875"
Although all three are much more hanger than butthook. All three seem fairly conservative to me, relative to true field target butt-hooks like those used in WFTF.
PXL_20240814_041757469.jpg
PXL_20240814_041910299.jpg
PXL_20240814_041553371.jpg



Ie THIS is my understanding of a field target butthook...

Screenshot_20240813-212831.png
 
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Franklink said:
Out of curiosity I measured "G" on three personal rigs that I don't consider butt-hooks but might be subject to the new rule.
All three are right around an inch, the most being about 1.1875"
Although all three are much more hanger than butthook. All three seem fairly conservative to me, relative to true field target butt-hooks like those used in WFTF.
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I believe your straight edge is supposed to bridge the top and bottom of the butt plate, and the measurements is the max depth. The butt that only has the hanger will end up having a much smaller depth of curve than what your picture represents. I am not sure how it will work out on the others.
1723638657510.png


20mm might be too restrictive from what is currently available, maybe 1.25 inch is a reasonable depth based on the current accessory availability and common implementations.

NRA High Power Rifle, another "standard rifle" type discipline, also identifies the allowed curvature for butt plate. It's still about the 20mm number, but is just another reference that can be used for guidance when clarifying/defining an AAFTA Hunter legal butt plate. (rule 3.15)

1723639136541.png
 
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shootermeb said:
I believe your straight edge is supposed to bridge the top and bottom of the butt plate, and the measurements is the max depth. The butt that only has the hanger will end up having a much smaller depth of curve than what your picture represents. I am not sure how it will work out on the others.
View attachment 488340

20mm might be too restrictive from what is currently available, maybe 1.25 inch is a reasonable depth based on the current accessory availability and common implementations.

NRA High Power Rifle, another "standard rifle" type discipline, also identifies the allowed curvature for butt plate. It's still about the 20mm number, but is just another reference that can be used for guidance when clarifying/defining an AAFTA Hunter legal butt plate. (rule 3.15)

View attachment 488341
Click to expand...

Yes, there's a gray area in how that particular "G" measurement would be taken. I was trying to keep my measured point parallel to the line that would bisect most of the buttpad. And then measure from the deepest part of the curve (when a curve is present).

If "cutting the corner" when no bottom "wing" is present, like in your photo of my buttpad, even more hangar would be possible than what I demonstrated with the way I measured.
 
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An example of why rules exist...

When Ben Spencer started Extreme Field Target, he wanted to keep the rules to a minimum. In one of those earliest matches he handed out two sheets of 8x11 paper, printed on only one side. That was all the rules. It wasn't long before guys started using square bottomed "hog saddles" mounted on top of their bipods. A vote was held by the active participants and the hig saddles were voted down. So a rule was added. And that's how it went for the 2-3ish years that Ben held matches as "Extreme Field Target" before the hostile takeover. Fast forward to now, that rule carried over to the current and national iteration of EFT.
(And if anyone wants to dispute any of these facts I'll be more than glad to provide date-stamped links to all the AGN match reports.)

Sub20 field target (AAFTA) has been around a long time. Give the current EFT some time and rules will likely need to be added. Most rules exist because someone was trying to get a leg-up on the competition in some way or another.
 
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In my opinion, the amount of curvature is less important than the length of the pad. Franklink's second photo with the 3D printed "Samson" pad is the way I have shot hunter in the past. You can't get too much more curvature and still have decent contact area with your shoulder. The photo from cavedweller looks like a Sub-Moa pad, I have used that for EFT complying with Ron's 30 degree rule. I also use that pad with a bunch of extensions on the top and a hook on the bottom for Open and WFTF.

I think when you start to get into a tricky area is when you add extensions or links to these pads. Increasing the effective length of the top paddle while increasing the curvature will give you more support by allowing weight of the rifle to rest on top of the shoulder.

The current Hunter class rules say no butt hooks. A butt hook is a bar that extends from the bottom of the butt pad under the arm. If you don't know what a butt hook is, now you do. Most match directors also extend the definition of a butt hook to mean the scorpion tail that extends over the shoulder. While not technically a butt hook, I agree that these don't belong on a hunter class rifle.

So my suggestion for a rule clarification would be "No butt hooks or extensions of the butt pad that are designed to extend over the shoulder or under the arm pit." If we want to be extra clear, we could add "Two piece or three piece adjustable butt pads should not have extensions between the paddles and the base. Butt pad paddles should be less than 2.5" in length."
Actually, we can clean this up a little:
"Butt pads should not extend over the shoulder or under the armpit. Butt pads with adjustable paddles should have the paddle attached directly to the base without extensions, and the length of each paddle should not exceed 2.5"
Then insert photos of legal and illegal butt pads. That would effectively make everything currently in use still legal and remove the grey area that is up to MD interpretation.
 
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Motorhead said:
No rules becomes similar to a train without brakes or a speed governor :rolleyes:
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True... EFT does have some rules, but they aren't much different than the "one sheet of paper" that was handed out by Ben at the American Extreme FT event Sep 2021. The current EFT rules would easily fit on one page...

https://extremefieldtarget.com/23-24-grand-prix.html

There was the Hog Saddle vote since shooters were bringing foot long U-shaped appendages attached to the tops of their bipods. Funny enough, those are still legal for AAFTA and I see them from time to time at competitions.

If I remember correctly one of the bigger disputes was shooting position. It was decided that the soles of both feet needed to be on the ground in the "open" shooting position. Thats been done away with, and rules have been pretty much static at EFT events since that time.
 
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