Thermal Scope Recommendations

[Hal4son]

@karl_h
12 micron cores allow the manufacture(s) to use a smaller germanium lens to get a similar image. Everything is going to 12 micron because that germanium lens is the most expensive component in thermals and it allows them to have lower component costs into the final product.

 

[N2 Shooter]

@karl_h

Agree 109% on the humidity vs dewpoint argument. But if looking at maximum signal fidelity, you can only be as good as the image detected by the sensor.

In the this market segment, I expect ATN to source the lowest quality sensors available. I do not expect ATN to have totally revamped their image pipeline with a new DSP system unless the price difference was significant. Let's face it, ATN, AGM and most other 'manufacturers' save Pulsar and Trijicon probably push out the reference design as is, and only 'engineer' the UI/UX portion.

I made the decision that ATN's 4th generation 640 pixel scope was good enough for me vs. >2x the price of their THOR 5 XD series. I have not seen an actual video from their XD series, and that alone has given me pause, as I'd expect them to be screaming from the rooftops about it. But after seeing how they lied with what the X-SIGHT 5 owners were getting from the 240fps feature, I'd figure I'd stick to what I know.

 

[karl_h]

@halson, that is one of many reasons kind of. You will find many of the high end thermals with a 12micron core vs. the previous model of same high end unit with 17micron core have larger lenses on the 12 micron core to achieve the same base magnification and image quality supplied to the core. You can design an equivalent size lens, or even smaller, to achieve that, but there are compromises/issues with that. Same pixel count 12 micron cores use less power than 17 micron cores, just like smaller but better computer chips as time goes on. Smaller cores allow smaller and lighter units, most would consider that a plus also. Far more to it, change one thing and that snowballs to other things, hopefully always getting better as time goes on.

BTW, many of the budget thermals don't use Germanium lenses, they use cheaper alternatives that currently are just not as good. The high end is looking at other types of glass also with no loss in capability but less $$ in material cost and ease of casting before polishing/diamond cutting.

 

[NorthernBallistics]

You want good stuff, you need to really pay ATN is trying to expensive things cheap.

Amazon.ca

 

[Ezana4CE]

You want good stuff, you need to really pay ATN is trying to expensive things cheap.

Amazon.ca

@NorthernBallistics That is not a cheap price for an AGM Rattler, nor is a Rattler considered "good stuff" to me. I bought my Rattler (a TS35-384) wayyyyyyy cheaper (over $1000 cheaper) than the AMZ price listed in the quoted post and I swiftly returned it. The image quality was not impressive or the price point and I should've at least gotten an AGM Varmint because it has the LRF feature that the Rattler lacks.

edit: image with AGM Rattler TS35-384. I think this rabbit was within 15 yards or less.

 

[NorthernBallistics]

Fair enough. I would actually like to trial the sight marks. Have you any experience?

I also didn’t say the link was a cheap price.

 

[Pfddi]

I just bought the PARD SA32-19 with LRF. It is 384k with 12µ core. $1376 shipped and no tax. It will be used for short range pesting!
So far, it will work well for the small game I am shooting at under 100 yards. Would I like a new 1024x768? Hell Yes! But I don't like the price! LOL

 

[Hal4son]

You want good stuff, you need to really pay ATN is trying to expensive things cheap.

Amazon is not the place to buy thermal equipment.

 

[Cranky1]

not sure where you picked up the term "process node", it is clear you are referring to the size of each individual receptor on the thermal core which is referred to as the pixel pitch of the core. I got half way through the video you linked before I had to stop, too much marketing BS, and a few pure half-truths(lies). Claiming a 17 micron pitch core will always have more sensistivity is a total lie, 1000000% untrue. When 12 micron cores first came out, it was kind of most of the time but not always true, but no longer. There are 12 micron cores that have sensitivity (NETD) of < 20mk, there may be a 17 micron core that good, I have never heard of one. Compare NETD spec of cores, not pixel pitch for sensitivity. Research and improvement follows the money, 12 micron cores (and the next thing on the horizon) are where that money goes, 17 micron cores aren't ever going to get much better because the R&D dollars all go to the 12 micron cores now, and due to the wavelength of light they use that size will not get smaller, it is already theoretically slighly smaller than some of the wavelengths uncooled thermals use, can't go smaller without making some compromises. As far as image presented on the view screen, that depends on the entire system from the lens to the core to the chips processing power, the software, and the display. Everything affects the final image.

And like everyone else, the presenter kept harping on humidity, totally usesless number when talking about thermal capability of any device. Water is the enemy, and humidity does not tell you how much water is between the thermal device and target. Dewpoint tells you how much water by mass is in a given volume of air. Some of the best thermal images I have with my Trijicon are in near 100% humidity (gasp). The dewpoint was in the teens F, needless to say so was the temperature. That same exact air with every single molecule of water still in it warmed to nearly 80 degrees F would be less than 10% humidity. Humidity is bs when talking about thermal devices. Mass of water in a given volume of air is what causes problems, have a dewpoint of 65 and it wouldn't matter if the temp was 66 or 100, the thermal image would be just as bad at both temps with a dewpoint of 65 since there would be the same mass of water in the same volume of air, and at 65 dewpoint that is a lot of water. If everything in two thermals was identical except the cores, the one with the smallest NETD could look better if the difference was significant for the conditions. But everything is not always equal, different lenses, different chipsets, different software and a core with a much worse NETD could look better by far than one with a super low NETD. it's all relative.

I often use humidity because my weather station does not show dew point. I cannot go by my weather app due to the fact that I live in a valley which is often 5 degrees different then the app plus my ponds tend to fog out some of the areas I hunt, they are elevated above my home. I guess I need a new weather station, I’m located in southern Illinois, heck I can’t even trust wind direction of the apps at my place. The one huge thing I’ve noticed is the lower net mk is good for seeing smaller temp variations. I use my telos almost every night, I had a helion2 xp50, and a couple agm. I’ve owned a superhogster and now an iray bolt 50 and played with a lot of other scopes/handhelds. The newer faster processors in some have helped a lot in smoothing out the view when moving.

 

[Cranky1]

Amazon is not the place to buy thermal equipment.

Find a larger dealer, or better yet a couple dealers and make a phone call if you can’t go there. A lot of larger shops have people testing products and have a lot of feedback and firsthand experience. One of the shops I use has helped a company on some of their products they are trying to refine before it’s released. Every now and then I get the invite to look for an extra opinion. Some pretty cool stuff is in the works from some up and coming companies. But I wouldn’t buy the first run from any company

 

[karl_h]

I often use humidity because my weather station does not show dew point. I cannot go by my weather app due to the fact that I live in a valley which is often 5 degrees different then the app plus my ponds tend to fog out some of the areas I hunt, they are elevated above my home. I guess I need a new weather station, I’m located in southern Illinois, heck I can’t even trust wind direction of the apps at my place. The one huge thing I’ve noticed is the lower net mk is good for seeing smaller temp variations. I use my telos almost every night, I had a helion2 xp50, and a couple agm. I’ve owned a superhogster and now an iray bolt 50 and played with a lot of other scopes/handhelds. The newer faster processors in some have helped a lot in smoothing out the view when moving.

You don't need a new weather station, just a simple chart. It's been my experience that anytime the dewpoint is under 50, degradation of image is negligable, by time you get under 40 it is almost nonexistent unless looking at something a long ways away(several hundred yards). Fog is another thing entirely, that is water droplets hanging in the air. I've found if I can see something with my naked eyes in a fog clear enough to make out details and not just a fuzzy blob outline,, I can see it in the thermal well enough to shoot small groups. I have a low area on my property I hunt a lot, less than a two minute walk out my back door. That area holds water, and probably 4 months of the year or a little less has standing water. When there is no standing water, the soil is virtually saturated anyway. I learned trying to shoot coyotes at night there, if afternoon temps were over 40 degrees F, no solid north wind, and the temp drops fast enough after sunset the whole bottom becomes a thick fog you can't see through, so I don't waste my time on nights like that.

here is a quick chart for dewpoint vs relative humidity.

 

[Cranky1]

You don't need a new weather station, just a simple chart. It's been my experience that anytime the dewpoint is under 50, degradation of image is negligable, by time you get under 40 it is almost nonexistent unless looking at something a long ways away(several hundred yards). Fog is another thing entirely, that is water droplets hanging in the air. I've found if I can see something with my naked eyes in a fog clear enough to make out details and not just a fuzzy blob outline,, I can see it in the thermal well enough to shoot small groups. I have a low area on my property I hunt a lot, less than a two minute walk out my back door. That area holds water, and probably 4 months of the year or a little less has standing water. When there is no standing water, the soil is virtually saturated anyway. I learned trying to shoot coyotes at night there, if afternoon temps were over 40 degrees F, no solid north wind, and the temp drops fast enough after sunset the whole bottom becomes a thick fog you can't see through, so I don't waste my time on nights like that.

here is a quick chart for dewpoint vs relative humidity.

View attachment 418593

Im saving this, unfortunately I’m rarely under 95% humidity. It was 98%last night at 45 degrees, I’m hoping for some snow and 20 degree weather to hunt.The area I usually hunt has 2 ponds, a creek and swampy area, so far the telos has been impressive and really does good to spot critters. The bolt 50 tends to have a little more detail but I think it’s mainly due to the higher base mag.

 

[Hal4son]

@karl_h Which thermals are you running for those conditions?
I've killed one coyote with a Pulsar Trail 2 XQ50 @ 60 yards in fog so thick you couldn't see the truck at that distance. Amazing clarity for such conditions. Wish I had the video recording on that one but it was a quick, opportunistic shot.

@Cranky1 Which dealers are you using for thermal purchases? I've been very happy dealing with Fox Optics, Outdoor Legacy & Eurooptics.

 

[Cranky1]

@Cranky1 Which dealers are you using for thermal purchases? I've been very happy dealing with Fox Optics, Outdoor Legacy & Eurooptics.

I use Midwest thermal optics (night coyote eliminators on fb) and night vision specialist. Both dealers have been very good to deal with, Midwest also carries some airguns. Midwest has a huge inventory, they are 5hrs from me and night vision specialists is a smaller dealer about 30 min from me. It’s hard to beat going to a shop and comparing several optics back to back. At Midwest we had $40-50k out comparing them trying to decide which one I was buying. Last time I was at night vision specialist we had a telos, cyclops 325 and 640d out watching deer from 200-650 yards. I’m waiting for the fox pro x48 to come out, I’ll add that to my roughneck and icotech Sabre.

 

[Outer_Rondacker]

Fair enough. I would actually like to trial the sight marks. Have you any experience?

I also didn’t say the link was a cheap price.

I have a Wraith Mini Thermal and I think it has pros and conns. Pros is the price. Can be had for 1400 bucks. Another is its base mag is 2 power, along with small and light weight. Conns are a lot. Known issues are lines on the screen. Very bright image no mater how low you set it. Blinding red back round in rainbow mode. Crosshairs do not center themselves after you sight in the gun. Buttons are hard to use. Lots of long presses and short presses. Works good just waiting on the first firmware update to hopefully fix the issues. The one issue or feature that will not be fixed with a firmware update is it has no freeze frame for a one shot zero. Not a deal breaker but a simple thing they could of added like wifi or picture in picture. This is best bang for the buck if the buck stops at 1500 bucks. Others are better for more money but then again what is not.