This debate about high end PCP vs Economy PCP - my perspective

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blackdiesel

blackdiesel

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Apr 1, 2015
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Georgia, United States
I think I can speak from both sides. I shoot with a great group of guys and have had the opportunity to shoot most of the high end PCPs. I also have a couple of what would be considered high end PCPs. Most of my PCPs are what would be classified as economy. I have 4 different Hatsans, but all have been modified. I can say without a doubt that when I shoot my Hatsans I shoot the same as when I shoot my Crickets. My Allen Z tuned 25 cal Cricket is the easiest PCP I have ever shot. The trigger is perfect, the fit is perfect and it's dead on accurate. But everything I can do with it I can do with my AT44 long 25 cal. My group sizes are the same and I can hit objects the same distance with it.

I love seeing Matt Dubber and Ted's videos. It's obvious that they are high level shooters and use some of the most expensive guns. However, Kenny (Southern Gunner) who shoot mostly unmodified Hatsan PCPs and Baxter Walton shows that they shoot every bit as well as Dubber and Ted. I know some people have preferences for weight, length that determine which gun they choose. It seems that some people think if they got an expensive gun it will improve their shooting, but I'm here to say if you practice you will be able to hit any shots with whatever gun you use. What are your opinions? Please no bashing just give your opinions based on your shooting experiences.
 
I would say that is pretty much spot on, (for the most part). Practice is everything and most guns will out perform there owners 95% of the time. But the old saying, " you get what you pay for." Has been around for quite a long time for a reason. It's true.... It is mostly the bells and whistles that we pay for (nice finish, polished look, latest tech, light weight, quality stock, etc). Matt, Ted, Baxter, and others whom post a lot of videos ALL tune there guns, so don't be fooled they are NOT OFF THE SHELF stuff. I do believe that the more you start spending the less the need for the tune thought. I was out shooting yesterday and my s510 unregulated and untuned actually shot 9 shots in 1.1 inch group at 95 yards and the 10th shot took it out to inch and half. Doesn't happen often but it does happen, and on that day it out shot my Cricket and my Tactic. But my s510 was a grand when i bought it and its my cheapest gun. Oh and my other two guns have been tuned by Ernest and do usually shoot better but not all the time. The better you know your gun the better you will shoot it. My impact will be here by Friday :)
 
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All my guns except my Sumatras are tuned and regulated. If you tune the gun yourself the cost is minimum so there's not a lot of money invested. For example, my Galatian (which by the way is not inexpensive-goes for over $800) has the valve modified which is just work and a regulator added $70. It's tuned for 56 shots at 30 FPE. It's heavier than most people like but I'm no "girly man" to complain about a 9 lb gun :D
 
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Blackdiesel I couldnt agree more. A simple way to put it.....equipment rarely will make you a better shot under real world conditions. Im not talking benchrest but rather walking in the woods and seeing a rabbit or a squirrel. For me.....the trigger is the most important thing about a rifle....as long as the said rifle is accurate. The trigger alone massively affects how well I can shoot offhand. Aside from that.....give me any pcp, expensive or cheap, that has an excellent trigger and accurate.....and Im good to go.
 
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All I can say is I loved my 25 Marauder, But I never could get rid of the ping, of the hammer slap,
My Crickets went straight to Earnest for a tune before I ever pulled the trigger,
They shoot smooth as silk, Same as my stock Mutant 22 that has never been tuned ,
I thought I would never sell the Marauder, But I just could not get rid of the twang , the ping, The sound just made it sound cheap compared to the Crickets and the Mutant.
It felt good, It shot good, It sounded cheap.
Maybe they have better parts for it now , That's just water under the bridge,
I do wish I never sold it, Lost my as s on that one
Mike
 
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I agree with you guys, buttttttttttttt, why don't we see "economy" pcp's, modified or out the box, winning a lot of these Benchrest competitions?

@Marksman3006...can't argue the refined shooting characteristics of a high-end pcp, clarity of quality glass, and uniformity of good ammo...I think equipment, the good stuff, makes you a better shot under controlled and unpredictable conditions...unless you're Bobby Lee Swagger!

I shoot my gen 2 Marauder 85% of the time over my Air Arms rifles and Fx Boss because I tinkered with it the most so, I guess, I've attached sentiment to it. But when I do shoot the top shelf brands, mannnn!, there's no mistaking the effortlessness involved in making the shot.
My experience is that the economy stuff definitely enriched my knowledge and understanding of the airgun craft (tinkering), but going straight to the high end stuff would've saved me a lot of cash in the long run...leaving me with maybe just two guns instead of a bunch of them equally distributed along the cost extremes.
 
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My apologies to anyone who works in the field of accounting in advance, but accountants are the scourge of all good engineering. Frequently, they tell the engineers and designers a certain feature will not increase marketability proportional to the increased cost of the feature. They tell the designers only a small sliver of customers will be happy with paying an extra few dollars for a given feature. Anything made by man (to include air rifles) suffers from this scourge. Most people pick up an item and say "this is perfect"; I tend to have an initial blush of love with any item and then say: "this is truly nice, but it could be awesome if only it were slightly changed". Often the differences sought are more of a matter of taste or emphasis, rather than something being actually wrong with the product. I realize marketing frequently plans for "center of mass" for the typical purchaser, without understanding less than 25% of the customers actually fit in that pigeon-hole.

​ Realizing any air rifle will not be left alone, I consider several factors (number 4 is a big factor) when an air rifle is selected. If the air rifle is to be modified,

1. Is it a solid foundation which has minimal serious and unresolvable complaints from the existing pool of users.
​2. Is there a solid base of users who have done a good job of uncovering limitations and fixes for the platform.
3. Is there a good pool of aftermarket parts available, with associated data of the outcome which is produced by those parts.
4. Accuracy, first and foremost. If the air rifle cannot be made accurate, no other factor matters.

​ Devil's advocate. It is well understood a less expensive air rifle may never have the fit and finish of some of the $2k beauties which are out there. It is very understandable that pride of ownership of a flagship air rifle is a significant lure. Some of the high end air rifles out there have actions which are so silky-smooth, they defy any hope of making a less expensive air rifle nearly as smooth. Like many tinkerers, a fantasy is harbored that someday an item will be found which will simply be *perfect* out of the box. I am certain it is out there somewhere, it just hasn't been found yet. 
 
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"ddransoml"I agree with you guys, buttttttttttttt, why don't we see "economy" pcp's, modified or out the box, winning a lot of these Benchrest competitions?

@Marksman3006...can't argue the refined shooting characteristics of a high-end pcp, clarity of quality glass, and uniformity of good ammo...I think equipment, the good stuff, makes you a better shot under controlled and unpredictable conditions...unless you're Bobby Lee Swagger!

I shoot my gen 2 Marauder 85% of the time over my Air Arms rifles and Fx Boss because I tinkered with it the most so, I guess, I've attached sentiment to it. But when I do shoot the top shelf brands, mannnn!, there's no mistaking the effortlessness involved in making the shot.
My experience is that the economy stuff definitely enriched my knowledge and understanding of the airgun craft (tinkering), but going straight to the high end stuff would've saved me a lot of cash in the long run...leaving me with maybe just two guns instead of a bunch of them equally distributed along the cost extremes.



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Logic tells me that I only need one gun to do what I like to do shooting. I really don't hunt much at all and mostly shoot long range plinking. But I found that I like different guns for different reasons. There's no arguing that high end guns make everything easier, but it just seems to me that different guns have different "personalities" for lack of a better word. For instance, my Sumatras are really crude compared to a high end PCP, they're like a big powerful pick-up truck. No frills, but perform at a high level. I guess I have some hoarding tendencies because I like shooting them as much as my more refined guns.

As far as the benchrest competitions, i think they're specialty events and shooters modify their guns to perform for benchrest. If you look at the Belgian events most shooters use a couple of different guns, extreme benchrest (which is not really considered traditional benchrest) most people use popular brands. I think that an accomplished shooter using a gun specifically engineered for benchrest will out perform any hybrid hunter/target gun on the market.
 
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It all started with a disco for my son, then it was modified. Then a Marauder 2nd gen .25 and a HUGE gopher that wouldn't die, WELL that spurned the FX Bobcat 30 tack driver. But now I can't get the marauder back my son loves it and he shoots it well. Don't know what the next will be, price point marauder that shoots great for any price or another high end. There are plus and minus to both but the biggest I notice is shot count. less money less shots per fill. Love my Bobcat but could buy 3 marauders for the price.
 
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I own a .177 Maximus, a .22 marauder, a .25 BT 65 QE, and a .25 Impact. It's pretty much the full spectrum of cost point for small bore airguns. I absolutely love all of my airguns, but I tend to go to my Impact more often than not. Shot count is the biggest factor there. The Impact spanks the other guns hands down in that category. The other thing that I have noticed with high end vs low end is that my Impact will pretty much shoot any pellet you put down the barrel well. My marauder will only shoot JSB's and the Maximus is close to that. The BT 65 has had a few different pellets, but the MKII king heavys are stupid accurate in that gun so I haven't really tested much else. All of my guns are modified except for the Impact. The Impact also has a few nice features like adjustable power, so it's really easy to tune for different pellets. As far as accuracy is concerned, all of them are lights out. The bottom line is (for me anyway) There is no need to spend the extra money if accuracy is your only concern. It's when you want some other creature comforts that you'll need to spend the coin for a rifle that you don't want to tinker with to make it do what you want it to do. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad I spent the money on my Impact, but the BT 65 can go toe to toe with it in the accuracy department with some TLC and a little help from guys like Bwalton. Speaking of Bwalton, if you read this, you did an amazing job on my barrel crown :)
 
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I agree completely I started with an .22 Mrod then modded it to the max. Bought a hot rodded .25 Mrod. Then some discos. Sold stuff off bought a WARP .25. great gun shot amazing however AR platforms just don't fit me well. Needed money and sold it. Bought a .177 BSA R10 MK2. Crazy accurate had fun with it but just couldn't like the .177 size in a PCP. Sold. have a .22 mutant stupid accurate quiet and extremely efficient. Have since regulated my .25 Mrod and now get 40 shots at 40 fpe for under $750. Bought a bottled .30 Mrod from ajshoots. I now don't shoot my Mutant even though it's the lightest and most expensive gun I own. It's getting sold and plan on buying either a RAW HM1000X LRT .30 or a AAA EVOL in .30. However don't think I'll ever get rid of my Mrods cause there my favorite of all the guns I've tried still. Plus if something ever breaks I know these guns inside and out backwards and forwards and can easily fix them
 
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I actually started shooting high-ends from the get go and settled in on the Hatsans.the quality of my edgun and cricket carbine were better as was the trigger vs my hatsan gladius.i was getting 4 mags worth on the edgun and cricket but my gladius is also getting four mags worth.the accuracy was the same on all of them with me behind the trigger.
I have now adjusted the trigger on my gladius and what a difference it has made in the shooting experience but still not as nice as either the edgun or cricket.
I have felt very satisfied with my gladius for my hard earned 600$ investment from Midway but the money spent on the edgun just left me feeling like I just over paid for what I got.Yes the edgun was very sweet and a real shooter but just not worth the extra cash for better quality, trigger and regulator to me.
I know it's well worth it to alot of folks and if that's what you want go for it and don't look back.:)
I'm hoping to have my bullboss from Bwalton very soon to go along side the gladius.:)
 
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Wow, I could write a novel on this subject as I have run the gamut. First PCP .25 Marauder. Then I got the .25 Cricket Carbine.
Knew right away I preferred the lever action and the higher shot count of the .25 Cricket.
Traded the .25 M-rod for a .177 M-rod to shoot Field target with.
Got a .177 AA S500 preferred the lever action on the S500. Both were tuned a little and had hair triggers. Still preferred the S500 over the M-rod as it seemed to edge it out on accuracy just a smidgen?
Got a .22 FX400. Got interested in Bench rest. Tried my luck at the 25 meter benchrest cards. Best I could do was low 240's. Tried it with the S500 and could only score in the 220's? Neither rifle regulated. Could shoot in the 240's with regulated .25 Cricket also but .25 cal is not a recognized caliber for the sport so in affect it was cheating if I was to try to compete with it, so I didn't try it much. When you have as many rifles as I did, it was hard to shoot them all.

After shooting these BR cards it was telling me which rifle was most consistent. As much as I liked the .177 S500 it just couldn't keep up with the .22 FX scorewise? Maybe the .22 just bucked the wind better? But 220's to 240's was quite a difference.

Then I was lucky enough to find a lightly used .177 Cricket Carbine and could easily shoot the lower 240's with a 247 being my highest score. Inherited a small sum of money and bought myself a .177 Thomas FT.
Could easily shoot mid 240's with 247 being my highest.

Long story with the Thomas, but I put a Huggett on the end of the barrel because I like a quiet rifle and it is my loudest without it. Scores floundered in the low 240's. As stubborn as I am, I wouldn't for a minute believe it was the Huggett as two of the higher scoring FT shooters in our club had moderators on the Thomas rifles? I thought it was me, dirty barrel, etc etc.

One weekend I shot a 238 and a 243 with the Thomas. Was really floored with the 238 as it had never shot below a 240? So the next weekend I finally took the Huggett off as well as the adapter on the end of the barrel. Shot a 248 my first card and then shot my first ever 250 card.

Only thing different besides not being suppressed is that I sized each pellet to 4.53 mm with a TBT pellet sizer as I pulled them from the tin, but I had also done that the previous weekend with the Huggett and crappy 238 score?

The price on this rifle is astronomical and I could buy three Cricket rifles for the cost. The trigger is a hair trigger,but no better than the tuned triggers on my .177 M-rod or .177 S500. The side lever is phenomenal. Best ever bar none on any rifle I've ever had. The swing port with the oring in it, instead of the breech end of the barrel makes barrel cleaning the easiest of any rifle I've ever owned.

As far as accuracy I would attribute it to the polygon barrel used on this rifle. I'm sure a RAW or any other rifle with the same polygonal barrel would be just as accurate with a good regulator. Had I known what I know now with the Raws and the polygon barrels I would have probably opted for one of those at almost half the price of the Thomas.

I've had M-rods, a tuned Disco, a Evanix Blizzard. For plinking they are perfect. Would I ever go back to them? I doubt it? Yes this addiction has finally made an airgun snob out of me???? LOL

Gonna stick with my Thomas, and Crickets. Maybe another FX will come along that I just have to have? Would love to have a RAW one day as well. The two economy guns tugging at me right now are the Taipan Mutant and RTI's The Priest.

May the addiction be with you ;-)
Jimmy



 
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You can make any air gun accurate if you are prepared to put in some work (and usually cash). High end rifles usually shoot better out of the box and that is how most people will use them.

For, me, whenever I have looked into the time and cash investment to bring my entry level guns up to the same standard as my more expensive guns, it just didn't make sense.

If I take my AT44, for example, by the time I added up the cost of a Walton tune (plus two way insured shipping, a regulator (plus installation and shipping), a new stock (because the factory stock is an abomination) and probably a new barrel, there isn't much of a saving.

Even after all the investment, I doubt I would be happy with my AT44. The action is rough. It's not particularly sturdy or well made. It still won't be as efficient or quiet as my Mutant, or as light and well balanced. 

I think the current price of a Mutant is compatible with upgrading an entry level air rifle. It may even be cheaper. 

Now, are there brands that charge a lot more without the additional value to justify it, yes there are. On the other hand, check out the price of getting a nice custom walnut stock made and add it to the cost of an unmodified AT44. Then tell me that's a good deal next to a Daystate Regal for $1050. 

 
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"ddransoml"@zebra...that's why I said I wish I'd have bought high-end in the beginning...now I'm stuck with upgraded economy guns I'll never get close to the investment put in if I sold them. Not to undermine the knowledge garnered tinkering with them and the sentiment from performance achieved, but give me high-end from here on out....
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My numbers are different. Paid $350 for refurb AT44 long, regulator $70, wood stock $99, did valve work myself, no need for new barrel or $25 if you want Baxter to crown it, so total cost between $520-545. I do have a larger regulator plenum and get 40 shots @ 45 FPE and as accurate as any gun I have. I will keep it and the high end gun because both are fun to shoot.
 
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