This debate about high end PCP vs Economy PCP - my perspective

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"CampFussell"Amazing 33 shot group Cliff. Nice work on the videos. I subscribed!
Jimmy
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Haha, thank you Jimmy. You're being very kind, I'm fully aware that my video editing is exceptionally sub-par lol. It's ok though, I enjoy doing it when the subject matter is something I enjoy. I have a lot of respect for those guys that put in the time to publish such polished videos. It is incredibly time consuming even for what I'm producing :)
 
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The gun that won the Field Target hunter class at the 2016 Nationals was 177 Marauder. 2016 Pyramyd Cup it was a 177 Marauder. New York State Crosman Grand Prix winner was a 177 Marauder.

Bill Rabbit won both the 2016 Nationals and the PA cup with a 177 Marauder. His gun looked like a stock synthetic Mrod. He installed a regulator. Cant remember if he installed a LW barrel or not. Trigger was stock. He competed against 35 - 40 of the top Hunter shooters in the country. Most were shooting Steyrs, Daystates, Weihrauch's, FX's and RAWS.

Dennis Hines won the 2016 New York State Crosman Grand Prix with a 177 Marauder against most of the same shooters and guns mentioned above. He installed a reg and an LW barrel. Everything else was stock.

The open and 12 ft pd divisions were different, there was maybe two Mrods entered. The Hunter class allows for shooting sticks and your allowed to sit on a bucket so the balance and weight of the gun for 90% of the shots isn't important. Hunter has one knelling lane and one standing lane. Every other shot is off sticks and a bucket.

Economy PCP's use cheaper materials compared to the higher end PCP's. Cheaper materials usually are going to be heavier. The companies selling economy PCP's are trying to sell a reliable product to the masses. Most high end PCP's are well balanced and lighter materials are used to keep the weight down. Most come with good regs and triggers, they do not have ping or twang, they feel good in the hand and look good to the eye.

A Toyota Celica will be able to compete with a Corvette in certain racing situations but 98% of the time a Corvette is going to win. Airguns are a little different, a good barrel, an aftermarket reg and a decent trigger can even the playing field a bit. All that said. There will not be a tuned Hatsan, Gamo or Mrod winning a major FT Open or 12 ft lb event anytime soon. Same goes for a major BR event, there is little chance of a tuned $700 PCP beating a $3500 Thomas, $2200 RAW or $3000 Steyr.
 
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Bench rest guns are built specifically for those competitions. So of course they will perform better in those situations. And you have to factor in the special bench rest, the special scope and all the other little nuances that goes into winning a bench rest competition. Just like 10 meter and other specialised shooting disciplines, you have to match the equipment to the type of event. But for the majority of shooters that shoot small game out to 100 yards I think a tuned hunting PCP will do the job just as well as the high end PCPs that cost 3x as much. If I'm trying to shoot a squirrel in the head at 75 yards I will get a kill shot as many times with any of my PCPs whether it's one of the tuned Cricket rifles or a tuned Hatsan or a stock Sumatra.
 
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"Sam63"The gun that won the Field Target hunter class at the 2016 Nationals was 177 Marauder. 2016 Pyramyd Cup it was a 177 Marauder. New York State Crosman Grand Prix winner was a 177 Marauder.

Bill Rabbit won both the 2016 Nationals and the PA cup with a 177 Marauder. His gun looked like a stock synthetic Mrod. He installed a regulator. Cant remember if he installed a LW barrel or not. Trigger was stock. He competed against 35 - 40 of the top Hunter shooters in the country. Most were shooting Steyrs, Daystates, Weihrauch's, FX's and RAWS.

Dennis Hines won the 2016 New York State Crosman Grand Prix with a 177 Marauder against most of the same shooters and guns mentioned above. He installed a reg and an LW barrel. Everything else was stock.

The open and 12 ft pd divisions were different, there was maybe two Mrods entered. The Hunter class allows for shooting sticks and your allowed to sit on a bucket so the balance and weight of the gun for 90% of the shots isn't important. Hunter has one knelling lane and one standing lane. Every other shot is off sticks and a bucket.

Economy PCP's use cheaper materials compared to the higher end PCP's. Cheaper materials usually are going to be heavier. The companies selling economy PCP's are trying to sell a reliable product to the masses. Most high end PCP's are well balanced and lighter materials are used to keep the weight down. Most come with good regs and triggers, they do not have ping or twang, they feel good in the hand and look good to the eye.

A Toyota Celica will be able to compete with a Corvette in certain racing situations but 98% of the time a Corvette is going to win. Airguns are a little different, a good barrel, an aftermarket reg and a decent trigger can even the playing field a bit. All that said. There will not be a tuned Hatsan, Gamo or Mrod winning a major FT Open or 12 ft lb event anytime soon. Same goes for a major BR event, there is little chance of a tuned $700 PCP beating a $3500 Thomas, $2200 RAW or $3000 Steyr.


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Well said Sam. I agree. I think when you hear someone say "such and such a competition" was won with a Marauder, it's more of a statement because it doesn't happen nearly as much as with the higher end brands. No one is ever surprised to hear that a Steyr or Thomas won. Some less expensive guns will have everything "click" and they will shoot awesome and a some high end guns will have something go wrong and won't shoot as well. I think that is the exception however, not the rule. Also, you can tune anything to within an inch of it's life to be more competitive. Changing barrels, adding regulators, changing/tuning triggers etc. By the time you put the money and time into it however, you likely could have had something that shot just as well right out of the box, even if it wasn't a super expensive high end brand. Then there's the fact that a percentage of the population doesn't want to invest the time, or just doesn't have the knowledge even if they had the time. Also, if you do all that work to a Marauder, Hatsan, etc. if you ever want to sell it, you are still selling just a Marauder or whatever and the chances of recouping the money are slim to none unless you find that special buyer.

I had a .25 Marauder that wouldn't hang with any of my higher end guns regardless of how I tried to tune it. Granted that's a small sample size but from my experience over the years with many different guns of all price ranges I think those results are typical for the average shooter. There are always exceptions to the rule however. But they are in my opinion, that, exceptions.
 
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To augment my parent post somewhat, I might also add that an individual who modifies a design forfeits product liability recourse when the design modification results in injury to the modifier. Further, it should be noted that bystanders would have a cause of action against the modifier for injuries to them as a foreseeable result of the modification. Jus' sayin' 
 
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I have the opportunity to own and shoot some high end guns and I prefer Crosman brand with LW barrels. IN FACT just TODAY I sold my Steyr rifle and bought a used Benjamin Gen1 Marauder based on want and preference and not based at all on price though I think I got a really good deal on it this morning then shipped off my Steyr to its new owner late in the afternoon and am getting paid for it at a later date. The 177 Gen1 Marauder I bought today has a heritage with prior years placing in the top 4 and even winning a State HFT. It has a LW barrel by Jim Gaska and is regulated and tuned. I primarily shoot a Crosman 1701p with larger TP (as the only real mod) and AR stock out to 50 yards. I have a Taipan Mutant as well that shoots lights out but prefer to shoot my Crosman guns with LW barrels significantly more on a daily basis. Prior to getting hooked on Crosman products, before the 1701p I was shooting an old 30+ year old untuned FWB 300s regularly which right now is rarely being shot. My next GO TO gun could possibly be a 12fpe 177 Maximus with Marauder trigger and TKO then upgrade to multi shot and buy a LW barrel if it needs it or if luck is on my side, find a cheap used one for sale already set up this way. I have bought a Challenger (unmodded) for a reasonable price that has actually won a Crosman Quigley Bucket Challenge 55 yard off hand shooting contest out of the box which is too loud to shoot and can't figure out how to make it quiet since the barrel is too short to attach an LDC to which is preventing me from enjoying it right now. I am also more than likely going to buy the Umarex Gauntlet in both calibers. I really think they will be fun to shoot based on the sole video posted and I already have a lot of magazines for them and will still be under $500 even with LW barrels if needby which is a bonus my book as long as the trigger can be sorted out. The Gauntlet has peaked my interest in the "fun factor" department and have a gut feeling that Crosman has some involvement in its production.
 
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Just reading this now.

I think it would be more accurate to say that a tuned entry level PCP can shoot as well as a high-end gun. But a box stock one, it's less likely. (quality and finish issues)
I would say that a tuned mid-tier gun (like Hatsans) is probably the best value: they can shoot as well as a high-end gun, have better overall quality and design than an entry level gun and still come in significantly less expensive than a high-end gun. Where you notice the difference in a high end gun is the exterior fit, finish and materials.

My tuned Hammerli 850 is a perfect example. It is accurate, has a great trigger, great action, and is regulated for lots of shots. But it will never look and feel as nice as a $1k+ PCP. A good amount of money goes into make them look and feel as nice as they shoot, you know? I've seen tuned 850s with custom stocks, and they look nice, but probably don't feel as nice as a factory high-end gun with good balance.
 
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I was shooting a $120 Crosman pistol yesterday while my $2200 RAW took a break. The Crosman still makes me chuckle out loud because **for what I paid**it is an amazing little gun! (posted in the target forum) And while I'm shooting that 10 fpe Crosman, my 500 fpe Texan was collecting dust. See where I'm going?

Our hobby is like every other. My old, $199 set of golf clubs doesn't hold my game back (because I suck at golf and don't care) Would I enjoy the game more with a $1,999 set? Hell no.

Like any other hobby, if you start getting good at it and it starts becoming an obsession and maybe even a PROfession, get ready to spend! This is when your skills have plateaued and you're looking for any little edge and each one costs more than the last. This is when spending more $$ actually matters and is worth it.

So unless you're hyper competitive by nature and just can't help yourself, DONT GO THERE! Hahaha

Just ENJOY (at any cost)



 
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A good shooter can do better with ANY gun than a bad shooter with a high end gun in many cases. My Marauder and My Cricket / Wildcat / Compatto / Regal XL / Condor's are all excellent shooters. Each is capable of hole in hole. Mods to the Marauder? A 12 lb hammer spring and an MDRL Bullpup stock. Off hand shooting is vastly improved by the MDRL Stock!

Thurmond
 
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You need both high end and economy PCPs. After stepping in a leaf covered hole while squirrel hunting last winter and watching my .25 Mrod tumble in slow motion through the air. I was glad it wasn't my .25 RAW 1000 HMX that I watched fly.

It knocked the breech seal out of the Mrod (5 minute fix), and since it recently had a Tiger Stripe GunSkins treatment the finish wasn't hurt in the least. The only mods to the Mrod is the adjustment to hammer spring and GunSkins. It shoots .5" groups at 50 yards and as a dedicated hunting AG you only need the 16 shots it provides before refill.

As far as a high end PCPs life's to short so get what you want. Don't let anyone fool you there is a difference when you shoot a RAW(high end) and a Mrod(economy). They just both fill different niches. So I continue to purchase both and could not be happier.



 
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I agree, even though I have a RAW and 2 Royals, I still get a lot of satisfaction shooting around in the woods at stuff with my Hammerli 850 with a $79 Hawke Sport HD on it . I'm not going to try benchrest shooting with it, but on a warm day when the CO2 is shooting well, I just really enjoy that rifle. Gotta say though, my TM 1000 is just pure joy from looking at it, to cocking it to pulling the awesome trigger to watching the bulls eye dissapear!
 
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