This must be an old question

[rangur1]

Slugs, pure lead category. Is there energy dump or expansion equitable to the hollow point or hunting pellets? I shoot pests, I wish ethical kills. Just that simple. Targets are to make sure I keep it tight for ethical reasons. Sometimes I need certain penetration for head/ skull shots. Which is my preference. Body more forgiving. But my application is limited. Thanks, I await responses, especially towards energy dump.

 

[JungleShooter]

Here are a few samples of expansion tests with slugs.

Cheers,

Matthias

 

[Franklink]

Here was some recent slug expansion testing....
Thread 'NSA .20/18.9 expansion experiment' https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/nsa-20-18-9-expansion-experiment.1316710/

Short version is that those NSA slugs don't expand much at all unless modified.

As for pellets....
On the prairie dogs I shoot there is very little expansion, even when using soft JSB lead going fast. For pellets I've mostly shooting them with .20/15.89s the last couple summers.

I'm somewhat assuming minimal expansion b/c I often see the pellet skipping through the dirt after it goes through the pdog. And that effect can be seen on some of the shots on the recent pesting videos I've shared in the hunting forum. There's one as close as 24 yards, and at least another in the 112 yard range. Complete and full pass through can be seen in both vids. With it going all the way through, I can't imagine it's expanding much. Watch for dust behind the shots, past the animal, and you'll see what I'm referencing.

.20 Condor pesting video (s)

I've been playing with a Condor since late July, just couldnt resist their 4th of July sale. https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/air-force-condor-review-a-case-report-in-how-utilitarian-can-be-a-positive.1316178/page-2 Late yesterday evening I decided to put the PARD on it to see how it would...

www.airgunnation.com

 

[Vetmx]

Here are a few samples of expansion tests with slugs.

Cheers,

Matthias


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I shoot several of the projectiles depicted here. Some at a higher velocity than shown, some around the same. All of my slugs/pellets were recovered from or just beyond a living furry creature. I had a bucket full. Some still laying around. I don’t agree with what’s pictured. Especially the H&N hollow point. I shoot them at 940fps and don’t get that expansion on squirrel. Same with his Hybrid results. They do mushroom but you have to get them cruising to get full expansion. @rangur1, the king of energy dump pellet is a Polymag. It is as devastating on small animals out to its accuracy limits as a slug. Except in .177. A 10gr slug has an advantage on a .177 Polymag.

 

[JungleShooter]

I shoot several of the projectiles depicted here. Some at a higher velocity than shown, some around the same. All of my slugs/pellets were recovered from or just beyond a living furry creature. I had a bucket full. Some still laying around. I don’t agree with what’s pictured. Especially the H&N hollow point. I shoot them at 940fps and don’t get that expansion on squirrel. Same with his Hybid results. They do mushroom but you have to get them cruising to get full expansion. @rangur1, the king of energy dump pellet is a Polymag. It is as devastating on small animals out to its accuracy limits as a slug. Except in .177. A 10gr slug has an advantage on a .177 Polymag.

️ Thanks for that very helpful comment, Frank!

Another case of "real life science" beating "lab science" (ballistic gel/ butcher's meat tests).

Matthias

 

[JimD]

Metalmags (polymags with a metal instead of plastic point) were the only pellet that expanded in my wet paper penetration tests with my Prod. It doesn't get them to more than about 700 fps (it is not stock). If they are accurate for you they could be a useful choice. They are not very accurate in my 3 22s so I still have most of the first tin I bought.

I've shot nearly 60 squirrels with non expanding pellets. Mostly domed but I lump Crosman hollow points in with the domed because they don't expand when I shoot them from my Prod. I get DRT results as long as I place the shot correctly. Brain or lungs. My Prod is only about 18 fpe and my P35-177 is similar. Squirrels hit correctly with these guns may take a step or two but none have run. I will also say, however, that I am confident a front of chest shot with any of my under 40 fpe airguns on a squirrel is likely to run a little. It happened twice with my P35-25 when it was tuned to about 32 fpe. Those 2 are the only 2 than ran of the 18 I've taken with it. They are two of the 3 that did not exit. The other was a shoulder to shoulder shot that dropped on the spot. But a brain shot (or neck shot, I lump them together since the squirrel generally reacts similarly) or a double lung shot drops them with simple domed pellets. Reliably. But if you are shooting a gun over around 15 fpe the pellet or slug may exit. By the time you get to 30 fpe it is probably going to exit. If that is a problem then an expanding projectile your gun shoots accurately may help. In wet paper tests, I see significantly less penetration from the same gun when the pellet or slug expands.

I am not very worried about exits because I consistently shoot in a direction that is safe if I miss so an exit would also go in a safe direction. Second, an exiting projectile will be going slower so it will not carry as far or have as much remaining energy when it arrives. I think exit wounds help the animal expire quicker. But others feel strongly a wider hole is better. I've also calculated the rough equivalency in terms of tissue damage of a 177 pellet that does not expand versus a projectile on a deer. Because of the much greater area it would take a .75 inch hole in a deer to damage as high a percentage of it's body as a non-expanding 177 damages on a squirrel. Just another cross check on my squirrel data. I just does not require expansion to get clean kills on a squirrel.

Sometimes "energy dump" is used to imply that there is a shock effect like you see in ballistic gel from airgun projectiles. That is just not the case. That happens on high velocity PB rifle rounds over about 2000 fps muzzle velocity. It happens because the animal tissue gets expanded so quickly it is damaged and cannot just shrink back after the projectile passes. With low velocity guns, like PB pistols and air guns, the cavity in the animal just collapses back and the only damage is the hole the projectile made. There is a big paper from a three letter agency talking about PB handgun ballistics that says this.

 

[18.13]

Unless you need penetration Hades all day. They start opening up on birds and will fragment in different directions

 

[JungleShooter]

Unless you need penetration Hades all day. They start opening up on birds and will fragment in different directions

If you have any photographic evidence on the expansion in birds, I'd love to see it.

I also would be interested at what muzzle velocities you shoot those that DO expand — and at what ranges that usually takes place.

Thanks a lot!

Matthias

 

[Vetmx]

In my experience and recovered pellets, the Hades do a better job than a dome. As long as they shoot accurately to your max range. A dome will generally hold its own further out than a Hades. A Hades magic doesn’t come from expansion. It comes from the shape of its head causing better cavitation than a dome. This is a Polymag removed from the aft side of a squirrel. This is what these pellets do every time. A Hades head is still too dense to get reliable consistent expansion. Maybe if you can get them going accurately at warp speed.