Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?
- Thread starter Airgunoregon
- Start date
Gotta say Mike, this thought is spot on with what I have seen. Additionally, I think a big part of the problem is that the FEW that do want it, can't even agree on a common rule set. If they really want to make it happen, they should come together as a group and give the BOG some help in creating/forming the rules. This is exactly what I asked our local shooters to do here in Ohio, because we had some shooters running the entire course on the bucket (including positionals), some shooters using laser range finders, and some limiting their max mag to 25x....it was all over the place. I suspect that is what might be happening all over the country.
I have read a few interesting thoughts here that could actually turn into a division that might help bring in more new shooters. And that is great to see. I hope some of these ideas are followed up on and actually proposed to the BOG.
And @dayjd , this idea that AAFTA isn't doing enough for Hunter is truly lost on me. You speak like the organization helping the US WFTF team with their entry fee (which I believe DID NOT happen this year) is some slap in the face to everyone else. Don't you think that if there was a Worlds competition for what we call "Hunter" or "Open" that the organization would do everything they can to help the shooters that might represent the US? Of course they would.
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Well I'm sure you are having fun in your own mind about this Bull poop bit of reading others minds.
As happened years ago the ""Good O'l Boys" of the AAFTA being a East coast organization will continue as they have.
Good luck to all and have fun playing the game as you like just the way it is and likely to remain.
Most mind boggling thing is ... No one asked any one to change there game or how they play it. As for those of you feeling Change is too hard to grasp when it has potential in helping others, Your left to feel proud you hindered any progression & willingness to expand the FT game under the AAFTA umbella.
Done ...
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I have a name Tyler and you know what it is. I don't think you will find me saying anything about entry fee in these threads. Has AAFTA ever offered the Hunter class the rules to compete in a World HFT event, or even mentioned support for it. I think not! I do know there was a club down south that tried to get something going but eventually gave up for lack of interest. I'm sure the AAFTA WFTF support is appreciated by them and I basically have no problem with it. On the flip side a bunch of us and mostly from the Hunter class would like to expand our shooting abilities into the American game somehow. We have offered suggestions and had two trial years but nothing has come of it but broke promises and frustration on our part.
I would hope that someone would put something in front of the Bog that is more inclusive then exclusive. An Open class shooter or a WFTF shooter can shoot in our class about anytime they want providing they follow the class rules. Frankly few have tried it and basically because they don't want to give up their big scopes and shooting jackets. More than half the hunter class because of age or disabilities cannot do the same into their classes. The biggest problem repetitively getting up and down from the ground and the pain the follows. Is keeping our old bones in the game not as important as bringing in new people that may not want to hang around the rest of their lives.
Bill Day
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Perhaps taken a little out of context. This seems like you are making a criticism of AAFTA and yet your suggestion would make it much worse.
????
Tim
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Bill….there’s a big difference between can’t and don’t want to. I’ve heard lots of guys tell me they can’t sit on on a bumbag….but really they would just rather not.
That’s Ok….but it’s inaccurate to say can’t.
You CAN shoot Open class….but you’d rather shoot Open on a bucket.
Mike
That’s Ok….but it’s inaccurate to say can’t.
You CAN shoot Open class….but you’d rather shoot Open on a bucket.
Mike
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In the earliest days of Ben Spencer's attempts to turn Xtreme Field Target into more than just a 1x/year thing at EBR, there was intense discussion here on AGN about this very thing. I commented in that discussion that field target is an arms race, or rather, an equipment race. It ruffled some feathers, cuz, well, the truth hurts. Field target is still an equipment race. It is in sub 20fpe versions, and it has become such in extreme field target (despite our best efforts to curtail it). I know of guys that are on their 2nd or 3rd, or 4th $2000+ dollar gun, trying to become competitive in extreme field target.
The responses to my comments about it being an arms race ran the gamut of variance, ranging from abhorrence that I would dare suggest that somebody with better equipment has a better chance of winning, up to and including this response: "yeah, it is an arms race, so what?"
Ultimately, whether one wants to admit it or not, low power and high power field target IS an equipment race, just like most competitions that are heavily equipment oriented (paraphrase of comment from thomasair from that discussion a couple years ago).
My suggestion of a single class that allows any combination of currently legal equipment won't make it any more so of an equipment race. In my idea, nothing beyond what is currently allowed would be allowed. Everybody in each class is already almost perpetually "trying out" different; guns, scopes, bipods, risers, shooting gloves and jackets, scope wheels, and on and on and on. Putting us all in the same class won't change that, it'll just continue.
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and no, not so much a criticism and just calling it like I see it. Really, the equipment race is part of what keeps "the industry" alive, as well as keeps most of us interested. Buying and trying new equipment, looking for a competitive edge or something "better" than what we already have is fun, expensive, but fun.
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Bill, I tagged you versus saying Bill because I believe that notifies you since I wasn't replying to your post directly. Nothing to be peeved about.
I know that you didn't bring up entry fees here, but you and others have before. And you did insuinuate that AAFTA somehow treats WFTF shooters better than Hunter shooters. I'd love for you to expand on that one.
You're talking about UK HFT, which is a completely different game. Different course requirements and everything. Maybe that's why it was never brought into the fold. As you mentioned, there was a single club here in the US that tried to do it, don't think it took off, though it would've been fun to try. But I am sure that IF a team assembled, and wanted to go to the HFT worlds, that AAFTA would gladly get involved and support them if asked. In fact, aside from the course layout issues that make the game different, you'd probably have a reasonable shot at getting AAFTA to adopt UK HFT as a sanctioned division, but you'd still have to get up and down for that, and scopes are even more limited....and it's played at 12 fpe. Probably not what you're looking for.
The "trial years" you continually talk about were a limited number of clubs, playing by different sets of rules with no AAFTA involvement. Stop passing it off as if it was something that was actually organized by AAFTA and then denied to you. It wasn't. That was what we tried to offer to the clubs back in late 2017, an official, sanctioned trial class that would be offered at all matches. It didn't meet the requirements put forth to move forward with. You want another vote on it, all you have to do is send an email to the BOG. The worst they can say is no, but they might just give it another try. You don't know until you ask.
What continues to astonish me is that the UK seems to do just fine with older guys getting up and down off the bum bag (or off of the ground if you look at HFT). Heck, Ron Carlson was getting up and down off the bag up until a few years ago. It can be done. But I get it, the mind may be willing, but the body not so much.
What I don't understand is what you (and others in this thread) ACTUALLY want here, because that is unclear. Do you want to shoot hunter with higher mag? Do you want some new division with literally zero restrictions? If I recall back in 2017, the conversation was mostly centered around wanting higher mag scopes. So the BOG bumped it up from 12x to 16x. I know it's not a huge change, but it's something.
One of my biggest gripes when I was on the board, is that there was all this talk on forums, but very little actually made it to the BOG by way of actual requests. So everyone that wants this needs to get together, determine what they collectively want, and make a formal unified request to the board (by email, not on a forum). You've got an almost complete new BOG now from the last time this was officially brought before the board, all the more reason to make the extra effort and try again if this is really something you want to see.
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Franklink, I believe "Everybody" is seldom, if ever, true when it comes to FT. If it was, there would be no discussion here.
Tim
Tim
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I think you're referring to my use of "everybody" when I mentioned buying and trying out new equipment, ie the perpetual arms race.
Then lets go with "the vast majority." And I'm basing that off of the 3 different clubs of regular ft that I frequent, as well as the extreme ft matches. So, 4 different field target clubs.
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Tyler, I'm not sure why you think I am peeved off. I really wasn't. The trial years (2016 and 2017)were ok'd by AAFTA and you are right not all clubs were doing it and clubs that were they were either playing what they thought a unlimited game should be and other clubs were playing Freestyle. Even our thoughts here I agree are kinda all over the place. I didn't hear AAFTA bring these things out at the 2017 or start out giving us any quidance as to what we should be doing. After the Annual meeting and at the banquet that followed I was told we would have a new class the following year.
I can see the effort here has been all over the place and I asked if we could settle on rules that could be hand delivered to AAFTA at this year Nationals. Maybe we all are just whiners that just like to hear each other howl with no intensions of following through. I do believe we need a leader that will follow through if we want change and I personally would not want that job. I have already laid out what my plans were for the next two years with no guarantee I will be able to handle that task but my plans are to try. If adding another class would be so disruptive then maybe just allowing higher power scopes would satisfy most of the Hunter class. I agree someone has got to finalize what we want and get it to the BOG.
Are you saying those guys that shoot HFT in the UK are in better shape then we are? I would bet that they have shooters that can't do it anymore. You just don't hear about them over here. As far as Ron Carlson goes he was very fortunate to have his health as long as he did and a very nice gentlemen. From what I could see the last few years his performance shifted south but I was inspired by his efforts to still play the game.
Bill Day
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Well Bill, I was on the board in 2016, and I do not remember there being any official vote or acceptance of a trial given by the board. But that's neither here nor there. Ultimately, I think it comes down to what folks want. If this is simply about continuing to shoot, then continuing to shoot Hunter really shouldn't be an imposition. If it's about continuing to shoot high scores, that's a very different conversation. The way many have positioned this, is that an unlimited division would allow a lot of shooters to simply continue shooting, and I don't think that's accurate. Because there's no reason they can't continue to shoot Hunter as is (and I think many are doing that). Now, if for some reason you can't shoot hunter, there's also no reason that they can't shoot unlimited at GPs that allow it. Your scores may not count for the GP, and there may not be awards, but if that's important to you, then you need to shoot a sanctioned division. And if the ultimate goal is to get this to be a sanctioned division, or get the rules of hunter changed, then simply talking about it here isn't going to do that. It needs to be presented to the board, and you have to have some solid reasoning behind it and support for it from a good number of shooters, or better yet, clubs.
With regards to the UK, I don't think it's a question of better shape or not. I think they only shoot from a bum bag, or from the ground (outside of positionals of course), and that's what they get used to. And while I'm sure many age out at some point, that's just the way they shoot whether it is HFT or FT. We have far more options for shooters here than they offer there. And while it's not going to be perfect for everyone, we also don't want it to get so diluted that there are more divisions than shooters. It's a balance, and I trust that those on the board now, and those that will be on it in the future, will do their best to maintain that balance while trying to increase participation.
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Tyler, there is a lot you say is true but, we use to have 6 classes before one became extinct. The hunter class at many GP's typically exceed twice the numbers that the other classes have in the PCP division. The Hunter of all classes could afford to give up a few. Field Target is a competitive game and I'm not a shame to say I try to shoot as high a score as I can and it looks like you do also. That is true in about any sport. The bucket and bipod have been a savior in American Field Target even though it hasn't filled the promise of its design (To be an introductory class to the other classes) Ther are many in hunter that would like to look through a scope and see the same sight picture as the other classes. To be able to range find the longer distances accurately as the other classes can. Those are two major advantages among many in the Open and WFTF PCP. Even with all the advantages no one has yet to clean a course in a major match that I can remember. I have heard of a few that have earlier in the history of American field Target but none in the 16 years I have been playing. Even in the two year trials of the Unlimited class no one did. Most likely the wind being the biggest culprit. I expect some day the conditions will be perfect and that will happen but so what shooting a perfect match is coveted not looked down on.
In you last sentence you mention trying to increase participation. Tell me what the BOG has done in the last 10 years to accomplish that task and any accomplishments that contributed to it. Secondly, with your balance theory would you care to expand on that as to what it means to us participants.
Thank you, Bill Day
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No one is denying (at least I am not) that Hunter has been great for participation here in the US. It is still the most likely class for a new shooter to start in, so in that way it does work well, but I understand what you're saying. Actually, I think the fact that we have more participants in Hunter than other divisions speaks to its accessibility. And while it may not currently be what was originally intended, well that's because the shooters asked for changes and the board made some....and here we are.
There have been courses cleared, heck, Jack Harris cleared one of the days of the Pyramyd Air Cup in 2019. That is the most recent example I can think of. But cleaning a course in general should not be a "common" feat. I believe that part of the challenge of Hunter was intended to be difficulty ranging. That's why the scope mag limit is there. You're afforded supports that other divisions are not, BUT, parallax ranging is going to be more difficult. But this isn't about the easy and difficult aspects of each division. This thread should be focused on what those that want Unlimited (whatever that looks like) are going to propose to the board. Get on the same page, and take action. Which is largely the point I am trying to get across, I think you get that.
The single largest change that the board decided on while I was on it was moving to a new website. I'll be the first to tell you that this was not an easy task, and it required help from a number of individuals both on the board, and outside of it. But doing so gives us the ability to move the digital footprint of the sport in America into the current era. Making AAFTA and Field Target EASIER to find online is a HUGE benefit for the clubs and the sport and hopefully one that benefits us in time, Though I'm sure it already has. The current board has taken the time to start cultivating an email list (not just of clubs, but individuals) to help promote upcoming GPs and they're also making an effort to have a social media presnce as well. These are all changes and improvements that should benefit the sport going forward.
The balance I spoke of is regarding change. The board has the unenviable task of having to try and see into the future a bit, and determine how changes may impact both the clubs and shooters and in turn, the organization. I can't tell you the amount of time boards I was on spent in back and forth conversations about the potential impacts of change. There are times where the BOG gets it wrong, and others where they get it right, and other times where things just are. They also have to decide what requests come from a vocal minority, and what the majority actually wants. Sometimes they are the same, sometimes they are not. A lot of people are very hard on our unpaid, elected volunteers without considering the difficulty of the gig. It's a thankless job most of the time.
While I was typing, I had an idea! Tell me what you think about this for a class. I think it retains a better balance and challenge than a lot of what I see suggested:
1) All Hunter aids are allowed
2) Any magnification scope is allowed
3) No clicking
4) 12 FPE max power output
There have been courses cleared, heck, Jack Harris cleared one of the days of the Pyramyd Air Cup in 2019. That is the most recent example I can think of. But cleaning a course in general should not be a "common" feat. I believe that part of the challenge of Hunter was intended to be difficulty ranging. That's why the scope mag limit is there. You're afforded supports that other divisions are not, BUT, parallax ranging is going to be more difficult. But this isn't about the easy and difficult aspects of each division. This thread should be focused on what those that want Unlimited (whatever that looks like) are going to propose to the board. Get on the same page, and take action. Which is largely the point I am trying to get across, I think you get that.
The single largest change that the board decided on while I was on it was moving to a new website. I'll be the first to tell you that this was not an easy task, and it required help from a number of individuals both on the board, and outside of it. But doing so gives us the ability to move the digital footprint of the sport in America into the current era. Making AAFTA and Field Target EASIER to find online is a HUGE benefit for the clubs and the sport and hopefully one that benefits us in time, Though I'm sure it already has. The current board has taken the time to start cultivating an email list (not just of clubs, but individuals) to help promote upcoming GPs and they're also making an effort to have a social media presnce as well. These are all changes and improvements that should benefit the sport going forward.
The balance I spoke of is regarding change. The board has the unenviable task of having to try and see into the future a bit, and determine how changes may impact both the clubs and shooters and in turn, the organization. I can't tell you the amount of time boards I was on spent in back and forth conversations about the potential impacts of change. There are times where the BOG gets it wrong, and others where they get it right, and other times where things just are. They also have to decide what requests come from a vocal minority, and what the majority actually wants. Sometimes they are the same, sometimes they are not. A lot of people are very hard on our unpaid, elected volunteers without considering the difficulty of the gig. It's a thankless job most of the time.
While I was typing, I had an idea! Tell me what you think about this for a class. I think it retains a better balance and challenge than a lot of what I see suggested:
1) All Hunter aids are allowed
2) Any magnification scope is allowed
3) No clicking
4) 12 FPE max power output
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Tyler, Excellent job with your replies. I understand everything you tried to convey and I appreciate your time and effort.
Jack Harris, Wow I remember him shooting in the PYA cup and he did clean the course on the second day. I don’t personally know Jack but I do know he is from the UK I believe and former World Champion in WFTF multiple times. Regardess he shot a heck of a match with our own Will Piatt just 4 points behind him in the 2 day score. I believe that was Will’s first year in WFTF which was quite a feat also.
OK, you got me once but I doubt you have another one up your sleeve that scored a perfect score in an GP in the last 10 years. The 2019 PYA Cup I believe holds the record for the biggest GP ever …. 111 shooters. It also attracted some great shooters from around the USA and a couple from UK. It is a shame we can’t get that event back.
Anyway, the class with rules you suggested would it be an unlimited class or a second hunter class? If it were a replacement for Hunter PCP I can’t say that the Hunter class is ready to run out and buy new 12 LB guns to shoot.. That would really not be a good balance. If it were a new unlimited class then I don’t think the name fits the class. Maybe Low power Hunter would work better. I think it might stand a better chance of flying but that’s only my opinion. Lets have a poll and get some thoughts on your proposal. Note: I realize it is just an idea and maybe something you could put your stamp on it but ultimate decision remains with the current Bog.
Tyler, I also have a suggestion for the AFFTA Bog. What do you think about every 4 years we have a World Championship with American rules. Let the Open Classes and Hunter classes compete against the world with our rues here in the USA. That might generate more participation of all our classes.
Again, I appreciate the input.
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.....What do you think about every 4 years we have a World Championship with American rules.
HI Bill,
I think we'd have better luck organizing a Pan American competition. They have power regs covering up to 40 joule. Of course, the South Americans were already on it back before covid.
K
HI Bill,
I think we'd have better luck organizing a Pan American competition. They have power regs covering up to 40 joule. Of course, the South Americans were already on it back before covid.
K
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Keith, What kind of canons would 40 Joule be? Sounds like power well beyond AFFTA Limits. Maybe a ERB type of event which might be out of AAFTA's platform.
Bill
Bill
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