Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?

[Airgunoregon]

I said early on that this thread was a "trial balloon" of sorts, and if a consensus could be arrived upon, then I would write up a proposal to the BOG.

I've also suggested an Unlimited class at 12fpe (or maybe Hunter class with any power scope), that we might propose as a class for the upcoming worlds in 2024 to allow more American shooters to join in.

I think the parity of the classes is real good now. 16x max scope for Hunter balances the use of a bipod... in my opinion.

What if you could choose a high power scope if you shoot at 12fpe OR 20fpe with the 16x max in Hunter class just as it is now?

Same class, choose 12fpe and any power scope, OR 20fpe and Hunter as is is now.

Wayne

 

[Scotchmo]

So Hunter Unlimited

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Hunter Division, is still a Limited division:
No jacket
No riser
No butthook
No clicking
No adjusting
No high power scopes
No two point slings

Allowing just one more of those does not make it Unlimited. If we allow ALL otherwise legal AAFTA equipment, then the Unlimited name might be justified.

 

[Motorhead]

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Hunter Division, is still a Limited division:
No jacket
No riser
No butthook
No clicking
No adjusting
No high power scopes
No two point slings

Allowing just one more of those does not make itUnlimited. If we allow ALL otherwise legal AAFTA equipment, then the Unlimited name might be justified.

Exactly what many of us were trying to get instated going back now 7+ seasons ago.

 

[K]

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Hunter Division, is still a Limited division:
No jacket
No riser
No butthook
No clicking
No adjusting
No high power scopes
No two point slings

Allowing just one more of those does not make it Unlimited. If we allow ALL otherwise legal AAFTA equipment, then the Unlimited name might be justified.

OK, but isn't it called "unlimited" in the poll?

 

[Scotchmo]

OK, but isn't it called "unlimited" in the poll?

Yes, the poll I saw was for a Division/class called "Unlimited", not "Hunter Unlimited". You added an extra word (Hunter) in the name that you posted.

 

[dayjd]

So Hunter Unlimited

Considering it would be made up from rules of all AFFTA classes I don't think it should be designated to just the hunter class just because anyone can participate in it any time they choose. You can pick and choose any of the aids and positions you want to use just as long they are in the AAFTA rule book as legal rules of Open, Hunter and WFTF... PCP or Piston based on head count in each class as we presently have. Right now at local matches it is not uncommon to have 1 Open Piston shooter, 2 Hunter Piston hunters, and 2 WFTF piston shooters all in the same class. Some clubs have also placed Unlimited PCP shooters in the same class as the Open class. Whatever it has taken to make a class the attendance warrants. This class does not eliminate the Hunter PCP or Piston as we now know it.

 

[dayjd]

Wayne, If we can agree on rules or a name that the majority wants that would be a good start. If we can get that far you are welcome to run with it.
Nobody was doing anything and if we want to get this going before next season we need to get our act together.

 

[K]

Yes, the poll I saw was for a Division/class called "Unlimited", not "Hunter Unlimited". You added an extra word (Hunter) in the name that you posted.

I get the feeling that some are confusing the definition of class and division. Either that or I'm too dumb to follow this thread.

If you just want to create a class, then it's like the PCP class or Piston Class, or Ladies class and it usually applies across all divisions. For example the piston or precharge class of WFTF, Open, or Hunter divisions. Maybe that's what is wanted? A limited class in all divisons?

The drift I'm getting is that a Limited Division is what is wanted., (or Unlimited depending on who is talking)

Best

Keith

 

[Franklink]

I get the feeling that some are confusing the definition of class and division. Either that or I'm too dumb to follow this thread.

If you just want to create a class, then it's like the PCP class or Piston Class, or Ladies class and it usually applies across all divisions. For example the piston or precharge class of WFTF, Open, or Hunter divisions. Maybe that's what is wanted? A limited class in all divisons?

The drift I'm getting is that a Limited Division is what is wanted., (or Unlimited depending on who is talking)

Best

Keith

I said it a page ago, but these Hunter guys are so dead-set on getting the scope magnification restriction lifted, that it fell on deaf ears. So, I'll repeat myself.

TOO MANY CLASSES (or divisions) ALREADY!!!

We should just put everybody in their own class and not keep score. At the end of the match, every shooter gets a cute little blue ribbon and a pat on the back for doing such an awesome job.

 

[Franklink]

What happened to the conclusion that Hunter class was plenty successful and doing just fine as-is?

 

[Kdog]

This is all a pipe dream in my opinion...seems certain people just want to shoot higher scores by using higher scope magnification. If Hunter class was made to get people into the sport then it has succeeded. The next step would be try another category such as Open and WFTF and don't get stuck on that bucket and sticks.

There is already enough categories without further division. A new UNLIMITED category will not entice new shooters or keep older shooters in the sport any longer. This has gotten to the point where a few people just want their way.

 

[Franklink]

For about the fifth time.....

I've got no issue with competing against guys shooting any combination of currently allowed equipment/assists.

I do have an issue with further division of an already overly sliced and diced up pool of competitors. Making more classes when we've already got too many is just silly.

Therefore, my input: either do away with all the classes, or only keep two, 12fpe and 20fpe. 12fpe can live by international rules since that's mostly why those guys are shooting wftf anyway, and everybody shooting 20fpe can use any combination of currently allowed equipment, and all be in the same class, actually competing against each other.

 

[Airgunoregon]

My guess is that 2/3rds of the clubs will NOT approve a new Unlimted class in any form.

That's why I'm thinking they might approve a change to the existing Hunter class.

That change would be a choice for the Hunter class competitors to use any power scope if they choose to shoot at 12fpe..... OR shoot the Hunter class as is.. 20fpe with a 16 power scope.

In my opinion, that might pass a 2/3rds vote of the clubs.

It's not close to what some want, but it's a realistic "stay in balance" proposal like Tyler said the BOG is looking for... in my opinion.


Wayne

 

[Scotchmo]

I get the feeling that some are confusing the definition of class and division. Either that or I'm too dumb to follow this thread.

If you just want to create a class, then it's like the PCP class or Piston Class, or Ladies class and it usually applies across all divisions. For example the piston or precharge class of WFTF, Open, or Hunter divisions. Maybe that's what is wanted? A limited class in all divisons?

The drift I'm getting is that a Limited Division is what is wanted., (or Unlimited depending on who is talking)

Best

Keith

Divisions:
"Unlimited" could be looked at as a consolidation of Divisions, not further division. All competitors in existing Divisions could shoot in Unlimited, shooting just as they do now, no changes, or they could use any other combination of legal equipment that they choose to. Once that is done, do we even need the other Divisions?

Classes:
Classes could be subsets of the competition. I think Piston would often warrant it's own class. Hunter? WFTF? Ladies? etc. Maybe make any class (when warranted) an additional award, like Ladies, or Senior, or Junior, or Piston, but they are still in the main event as well, competing for overall awards.

Right now, WFTF is a subset of Open. There is nothing allowed in WFTF that is not already allowed in Open. WFTF should probably have been a class from the beginning. Except they made Hunter which is not a subset of anything right now, though it would be a subset of Unlimited, as would Open. We don't really need the current Divisions once we create an Unlimited Division. In fact, Unlimited would become the new Common Division rules. So we could even call it that - "Common Division".

OK - maybe that's all too radical.

 

[thomasair]

My guess is that 2/3rds of the clubs will NOT approve a new Unlimted class in any form.

That's why I'm thinking they might approve a change to the existing Hunter class.

That change would be a choice for the Hunter class competitors to use any power scope if they choose to shoot at 12fpe..... OR shoot the Hunter class as is.. 20fpe with a 16 power scope.

In my opinion, that might pass a 2/3rds vote of the clubs.

It's not close to what some want, but it's a realistic "stay in balance" proposal like Tyler said the BOG is looking for... in my opinion.


Wayne

Wayne, this is a sensible proposal. It would give Bill everything he is asking for.

 

[Centercut]

For about the fifth time.....

I've got no issue with competing against guys shooting any combination of currently allowed equipment/assists.

I do have an issue with further division of an already overly sliced and diced up pool of competitors. Making more classes when we've already got too many is just silly.

Therefore, my input: either do away with all the classes, or only keep two, 12fpe and 20fpe. 12fpe can live by international rules since that's mostly why those guys are shooting wftf anyway, and everybody shooting 20fpe can use any combination of currently allowed equipment, and all be in the same class, actually competing against each other.

Darn Cole, and I thought we had a lot of bickering when we started the Extreme game. This makes that look lame…

As a Newby to AAFTA FT having only shot 5 matches, all Hunter, all I’d like to see is a return to allowing Prone in Hunter like it was 6 or 7 years ago. Other than that I think Hunter is fair and equitable, and here in the West is almost always with high overall score or close to it.

What can and can’t be used comparing Open to Hunter seems to balance out, as Wayne Burns has stated a few times just in this thread. Just my one cent…

 

[Franklink]

Darn Cole, and I thought we had a lot of bickering when we started the Extreme game. This makes that look lame…

As a Newby to AAFTA FT having only shot 5 matches, all Hunter, all I’d like to see is a return to allowing Prone in Hunter like it was 6 or 7 years ago. Other than that I think Hunter is fair and equitable, and here in the West is almost always with high overall score or close to it.

What can and can’t be used comparing Open to Hunter seems to balance out, as Wayne Burns has stated a few times just in this thread. Just my one cent…

Unfortunately, this conversation has been driven by selfish desires versus what's best for field target as a whole.

And the whole thing has been wonderful insight into WHY we have so many classes for a sport where probably 75% of all matches that occur have less than 20 participants. WFTF (PCP or piston), Unlimited (PCP or piston and currently available in certain clubs), Open (PCP or piston), Hunter (PCP or Piston) works out to 8 different classes. It's absurd. And the currently biggest class is fighting for a further break resulting in another class. So, 9? classes for an average # of participants that is probably around 12-18? at most monthly matches and monthly matches make up the bulk of field target shooting opportunities for most of us. Even take out the piston vs PCP thing and we're still talking 5 classes (WFTF, Unlimited, Open, Hunter, and Hunter 80X).

Little blue participation ribbons for all!!!

 

[dayjd]

Unfortunately, this conversation has been driving by selfish desires versus what's best for field target as a whole.

And the whole thing has been been wonderful insight into WHY we have so many classes for a sport where probably 75% of all matches that occur have less than 20 participants. WFTF (PCP or piston), Unlimited (PCP or piston and currently available in certain clubs), Open (PCP or piston), Hunter (PCP or Piston) works out to 8 different classes. It's absurd. And the currently biggest class is fighting for a further break resulting in another class. So, 9? classes for an average # of participants that is probably around 12-18? at most monthly matches and monthly matches make up the bulk of field target shooting opportunities for most of us. Even take out the piston vs PCP thing and we're still talking 5 classes (WFTF, Unlimited, Open, Hunter, and Hunter 80X).

Little blue participation ribbons for all!!!

Frank, How long you been playing this game? The numbers we have now at big events in Continental USA are better in the old days when there were one class. I personally resent your idea of "participant ribbons for all". Granted the smaller monthly club shoots don't get much other than recognition in maybe a club match writeup, but the GP and Nationals usually have a real award they hand out to the to 3 of 5 in the class depending on the attendance in that class. Most of those awards took a lot ofhard work to earn. How many have you won recently? We presently have 8 official classes with the Open piston not often seeing any participants and it has been this way for at least 5 years. AFFTA FT has grown since the change from one or two classes. Two many classes can salt down the numbers but believe it or not many of our classes are no longer in the growth mode, and even the hunter class has stagnated some what from recent years. New people that try FT often don't get their participation ribbons as you call them, and face match courses that are much too difficult for their skill level. Those are the ones that after a few matches tend to go back to fishing. Dedicated FT shooters that are our "cream of the crop" are dying off or getting to the point that shooting is much more difficult and dropping out. In the last year or so people so instrumental to our game like (Pat) Firemarshall , Jim Cyran, Will Piatt, Dave from BCSA and others have died off. Most of the gentlemen are not easily replaceable.
In ending I want to express I personally know many of the FT shooters that are trying to institute this new Field target class. Your Insinuation that we are driven by "Selfish desires versus what's is best for field target as a whole" shows me how little you really know about the people that has been playing this game a lot longer than you have. I mentioned a few days ago that I respected you as man that speaks for what he believes in. From your last reply I am beginning to doubt that but, you do have one or two cheerleaders that likes what you say.
Bill Day

 

[Franklink]

It's unfortunate that this "prove yourself before your opinion matters" mentality has cropped up more than once in all these discussions.....but if you want to play that too here we go......

I've participated in about 50 regular field target matches at 5 different venues and 16-18 extreme field target matches at 3 different venues.

My three most recent matches were:

• The Arizona State FT match in Sept, where I shot the overall high score on Day 1, 55/56. I think the next highest overall score was a 52 or maybe a 53. The next highest score from someone in my class (Open) was a 49. I went 48/48 from sitting shots, 4/4 from kneeling, and 3/4 from offhand. This was a GP level event. I did not shoot on Sunday (religious reasons).
• The Xtreme Field Target night match at Phoenix Rod and Gun club last week. I shot a 36/48. That put me at 5th out of 33 shooters. The high score there was a 39.
• Extreme Field Target portion of EBR, also last week. I shot a 31/40. That put me at 3rd for Sportsman class and "in the money." The highest score from either class was a 34/40. Out of roughly 80 shooters (both classes) only 5 people scored higher than 31/40.

I also shot a 51/52 at a monthly field target match over in NM in May or June. The Troyer for that match was something like a 35.

I've cleaned (perfect score) at least 3 courses (maybe 1 or 2 more?) and had enough 1 or 2 miss matches that I can't remember the total there.

So, no, I've not get decades in the sport but I've been around it a little bit. At least enough to have an opinion and understand what's going on here.

 

[thomasair]

Cole…you’ve just set yourself up to be called arrogant. Haha

Bill, this is an honest to goodness suggestion for you. Use some structure in your replies. I lose interest in your posts very quickly due to the single paragraph run on format you use. I usually don’t even make it to the end.