Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?

[dayjd]

Wayne,

My suggestion/opinion has been to let the Hunter guys have their unlimited scope power. But I feel that further dividing up an already small pool of participants isn't the way to go about that. It detracts from field target events actually being competitions and also further complicates an already overly complicated set of rules and divisions. I've been in the difficult position of trying to explain all the classes and equipment restrictions to shooters at their first match, as you surely have been as well. I distinctly remember having the thought during those discussions that the current state of field target class divisions is utterly asinine.

If unlimited scope power is the cure-all for what doesn't ail the already most popular class of field target, then are the Hunter class shooters willing to be lumped into the same class as everyone else? In other words, if Hunter class shooters want the same scope that Open and WFTF get to use, are they also willing to compete against guys using a harness or a shooting jacket or a bumbag or a knee riser? The answer seems to be no. Which is.....interesting. Cuz that equates to a "let us use some of what you use, but we don't want to compete against you if you're using the other assists that are allowed in your class." Seems.....self-serving.

I did not touch on grand prix scoring or structure. The number of guys that show up for regular montly ft matches is small, the number of guys actively participating in the gp series is even smaller. Like always, I'm giving suggestions based on what I feel would be best for the majority, not myself.

Wayne. Your 2nd paragraph doesn't seem logical to me. The basic intension of you starting this forum was Unlimited class. I thought the baisc theme of our FT classses were that we competed against each other in the same class. Frankly, as long as we can use the reason we are in Hunter class for and could use a higher power scopes like 24X I don't care what aids the Open or Wftf class uses. We are not asking for them to give up anything. In the last two Nationals held on the west coast or near the west coast (Arizona) the overall match high was won by a Hunter class shooter. Most of the opposition to the unlimited class is coming from the Western part of the U.S. and seems sponsered by an airgun manufacturer. Maybe he should be shooting in a new manufacturer class. He builds about the best air rifles in the world for Benchrest and Field Target. Even in the extreme game his rifles are competing well with the .22 rimfire I keep asking myself what is his problem with the hunter class? The gentleman that I referred to earlier didn't have to use a Thomas to be Top Dog. In two of the only Nationals I have seen him compete in. In fact I think he used two different rifles to win.

Maybe, I have missed it but I have not heard any hunter shooter complain they would be afraid to compete against Open and WFTF. If they want to join us with all their aids. We would just like to be able to see what they see when aiming at a FT target. For instance the target at bigger shoots (Especially the small KZ) get shot up so bad it is hard to tell exactly where the KZ is. Over the years I have lost quite a few points just for that reason. Bottomline, we have never been against the other classes like they are against Hunter class.

This will probably be my last post until I get back from the 2022 Nationals. Hunter class stay strong!

 

[Franklink]

Wayne. Your 2nd paragraph doesn't seem logical to me. The basic intension of you starting this forum was Unlimited class. I thought the baisc theme of our FT classses were that we competed against each other in the same class. Frankly, as long as we can use the reason we are in Hunter class for and could use a higher power scopes like 24X I don't care what aids the Open or Wftf class uses. We are not asking for them to give up anything. In the last two Nationals held on the west coast or near the west coast (Arizona) the overall match high was won by a Hunter class shooter. Most of the opposition to the unlimited class is coming from the Western part of the U.S. and seems sponsered by an airgun manufacturer. Maybe he should be shooting in a new manufacturer class. He builds about the best air rifles in the world for Benchrest and Field Target. Even in the extreme game his rifles are competing well with the .22 rimfire I keep asking myself what is his problem with the hunter class? The gentleman that I referred to earlier didn't have to use a Thomas to be Top Dog. In two of the only Nationals I have seen him compete in. In fact I think he used two different rifles to win.

Maybe, I have missed it but I have not heard any hunter shooter complain they would be afraid to compete against Open and WFTF. If they want to join us with all their aids. We would just like to be able to see what they see when aiming at a FT target. For instance the target at bigger shoots (Especially the small KZ) get shot up so bad it is hard to tell exactly where the KZ is. Over the years I have lost quite a few points just for that reason. Bottomline, we have never been against the other classes like they are against Hunter class.

This will probably be my last post until I get back from the 2022 Nationals. Hunter class stay strong!

You say Hunter isn't competing against Open or WFTF but yet point out that Hunter class shooters have been high match score at two west coast nationals. And I've seen that shooter point out the same thing numerous times.

Which is it then? Are Hunter class shooters comparing their scores to non-hunter class shooters or are they not?

 

[Airgunoregon]

You say Hunter isn't competing against Open or WFTF but yet point out that Hunter class shooters have been high match score at two west coast nationals. And I've seen that shooter point out the same thing numerous times.

Which is it then? Are Hunter class shooters comparing their scores to non-hunter class shooters or are they not?

In the world of the AAFTA Grand Prix Competitors.... ALL the competitors present are trying to be the highest score and or as close to it as possible, in order to have the highest percentage they can for that match.

Simple as that... That is the way that the AAFTA Grand Prix scoring is recorded and the winners of each class for the Grand Prix are chosen. All classes and competitors are a percentage of the highest score at each match.

The assumption that the competitors that are present at a regional Grand Prix that compete in a class with only one or two competitors are motivated by winning that small class at that event..... Without the consideration that the competitor is competing in that class to get a score for their Grand Prix game is very short sided... A competitor must have at least 3 scores from different venues in the same class for their Grand Prix to count as a winner.

I'm not willing to propose to the AAFTA BoG that Hunter class is allowed to use a higher power scope than 16x.... Without giving up some foot lbs of energy in exchange... Maybe a sliding scale:
20fpe = 16X
15fpe = 24X
12fpe = 32X

I think the Hunter class as it is now is equally competitive with the other PCP classes in their chances to win the overall high score and thus the 100% for that match in the Grand Prix scoring. I think this might be a compromise that 2/3rds might accept and I'm willing to write that up. I DON'T think a new Unlimited class will pass a 2/3rds vote of the clubs.

I would also propose... in order to accommodate competitors that CAN'T kneel that they could option to take some equally difficult sitting shots instead. That would require the course to have multiple targets on the kneeling lane for sitting or kneeling.

I will work on the document and get it to the BoG as soon as I can.

Wayne

 

[Franklink]

Yes Wayne it was a rhetorical question, based on my stance throughout all of this. We all want to be high overall score at a ft match, or at least all of them that I've been to. Which further proves my point that if a change is made it should be to reduce the number of classes, not add more, ie we should just all be in the same class and get rid of all the distinctions since as competitors we're already mostly concerned with overall high score.

 

[beerthief]

Hunter class is allowed to use a higher power scope than 16x.... Without giving up some foot lbs of energy in exchange... Maybe a sliding scale:
20fpe = 16X
15fpe = 24X
12fpe = 32X
I would also propose... in order to accommodate competitors that CAN'T kneel that they could option to take some equally difficult sitting shots instead. That would require the course to have multiple targets on the kneeling lane for sitting or kneeling.

Interesting proposal specially the 2nd one .

 

[Airgunoregon]

Yes Wayne it was a rhetorical question, based on my stance throughout all of this. We all want to be high overall score at a ft match, or at least all of them that I've been to. Which further proves my point that if a change is made it should be to reduce the number of classes, not add more, ie we should just all be in the same class and get rid of all the distinctions since as competitors we're already mostly concerned with overall high score.

OK, then if you feel strong enough about that point of view, then write up your own proposal to the AAFTA BoG.

I've pointed out that the extra number of classes are a pain in the ass myself, but also that for small clubs like ours, the many classes for the Grand Prix increase the number of registered and paid shooters, that come to my match from out of state. My match won't work without all those classes in the AAFTA Grand Prix.

so go for if you want.
I'm not voting for it.

Wayne

 

[Franklink]

Unfortunately, I don't think many would (will?) vote for my one 20fpe class idea, for the same reason your proposal isn't likely to get voted in. FT shooters seem pretty set on keeping what they perceive as the advantages of their chosen class, while cherry-picking what they see as the proposed advantages of other classes, all at the same time as making sure that each class stays in their lane so that they have to shoot with what is seen as a disadvantage, all while competing with them to get the highest overall score.

ie. the gang that is pro higher-magnification-for-Hunter will not be willing to give up the 20fpe for the scope mag. They'll want both.

 

[beerthief]

So ? In 15 pages has anything been set up yet ? Seems to me minds have not been changed at all .

 

[KPinWI]

There is no such thing as" Match Overall High Score" it is a totally meaningless concept with 8 divisions based on different equipment.
I wish people would let go of this foolish concept and just compete within their equipment classification. This need to shoot the highest Match Score is a meaningless achievement as different equipment classes have different advantages and disadvantages and are not equal.
On a windy day the 12fpe is a big disadvantage compared to the 20 fpe classes, so shall we have a "handicap" adder to give the 12fpe shooters a fair chance at the High Match score? Compete within your existing class, no changes needed.

 

[Franklink]

There is no such thing as" Match Overall High Score" it is a totally meaningless concept with 8 divisions based on different equipment.
I wish people would let go of this foolish concept and just compete within their equipment classification. This need to shoot the highest Match Score is a meaningless achievement as different equipment classes have different advantages and disadvantages and are not equal.
On a windy day the 12fpe is a big disadvantage compared to the 20 fpe classes, so shall we have a "handicap" adder to give the 12fpe shooters a fair chance at the High Match score? Compete within your existing class, no changes needed.

Agreed that it's not an official award, but it exists in the minds of the competitors. And not just mine, go up a few comments to find a match director that's been in the game for 30+? years say the same. And you don't have to look very hard to find the Hunter shooter making the comment about how he's been the highest score at more than one nationals, because I've seen multiple instances on the forums where he has done so, and way before this current discussion.

We all want to win our class, and the cherry on top is to have shot the highest score of anyone on the course that day.

Which again, make one 20fpe class and then high score is THE winner, like it should be.

 

[thomasair]

Some care about it….most don’t.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Scott, Wayne doesn’t agree with you about proposed growth. He said in bold letters that it’s not what this is about.

Wayne’s platform is that the unlimited class will keep old shooters in the game….although that is unlikely and there are no known examples of this being true.

Bill is also promoting the class like Wayne.

Your platform seems to be “let’s just see”.

If unlimited class comes to fruition in an AAFTA approved way, which class will you be competing in?

I’m certain Bill will make the switch, and pretty sure Wayne will too. Where will you be?

I can understand why you might assume that I would switch to Unlimited if it were to be adopted, since I'm asking the question... but it's truely not for me.. I'm thinking of my buddy Larry Durham and a few others that are aging and or loosing mobility.

If I switch from Hunter class it will be back to 12fpe WFTF PCP so I can play at the worlds in 2024.

Someday when I become more fragile in body, I would consider Unlimited AAFTA sanctioned or not. But for the foreseeable future I'm sticking in Hunter class... It's very unlikely I'll be able to get into the positions needed for WFTF PCP for the worlds, but I'll see what my body can do after next year in Hunter.

I don't know, maybe Unllimited class becomes a consideration more for folks who see the decline in their lives or others close to them...

Wayne

 

[steve123]

Agreed that it's not an official award, but it exists in the minds of the competitors. And not just mine, go up a few comments to find a match director that's been in the game for 30+? years say the same. And you don't have to look very hard to find the Hunter shooter making the comment about how he's been the highest score at more than one nationals, because I've seen multiple instances on the forums where he has done so, and way before this current discussion.

We all want to win our class, and the cherry on top is to have shot the highest score of anyone on the course that day.

Which again, make one 20fpe class and then high score is THE winner, like it should be.

Looking back on the summer I keep coming back to the fact that at 20 fpe the existing divisions are so close to the same in scores that there are no distinct advantages to be realized in a match where there are positionals. Same with a proposed Unlimited division as long as shooting sticks are not allowed in it for offhand or kneeling if it were to get voted in(as far as high match score goes). It's almost always the person that gets the most hits in the positional lanes, as well as makes the least mental mistakes, and just as important figures out the wind the best that gets the highest score. It's literally only one point that decides who wins and a piece of equipment isn't going to be the deciding factor there with whats currently allowed now for positionals.

I know how steady I was in Open when I was younger using a harness and thigh rest and I'm not any steadier now in Freestyle, not even if I used my tripod and clamped in(tripod not that great), or if I were to shoot in Hunter off sticks. The ONLY time I was more steady was when attached bipods were allowed and I was down prone. Even back then I would still clip a piece of grass or leaf here and there because I was low to the ground which would mess up my score. So an attached bipod I found to be no better for my scores, and well 12x. Maybe if the lanes were perfectly cleared of things in the way but.... When I was shooting then in Hunter I would always try my best to weed eat real good. Nope I'd always get tricked by clipping something.

Look at Kent, he's in his late 60's, and he can range good enough at 16x to be the match winner most of the summer, often close to perfect scores. Same with Rex and Steve Q at the NM match. They wouldn't have done any better if they'd had 50x scopes, harnesses, thigh rests, risers, shooting jackets, or slings.

IMHO the conclusion that there is a definite advantage in any of the 20 fpe divisions is only an illusion invented in the minds of men. It's only a fear that people have that somehow Unlimited would dominate or be unfair to the other divisions. The only way anyone would dominate any division is to practice a fair amount.
When I got the high score at state years ago while in Freestyle the main reasons were that I was lifting weights, younger and in good shape, and practicing for the match. I got the high score because I missed very few positionals.

No matter how much the AAFTA tries to make the three 20 fpe divisions perfectly equal its not going to be based in reality because in the end its the best shooter that will rise to the top. In other words its more political than anything else by trying not to piss people off that have the notion stuck in their head that Unlimited is scary and no other division would stand a chance.

Except an Unlimited division would lure new shooters easier because they would feel comfortable using their normal scope and a LRF which they often already own, would also give the people with eye problems an alternate by using a LRF. And they won't feel like they are in the special Olympics of FT like they would now. If these new people are so inclined they can always try another division later on.

I'm all for combining all the 20 fpe divisions into one. Talk about easy for MD's! As if that's ever going to happen.

I also like Wayne's idea of giving people a choice to shoot at a smaller KZ while sitting(As if that'll ever happen), instead of expecting people with ailments to engage the positionals when its likely they'll miss most of them. They might even enjoy the sport more because after all we do this for fun, right, and nobodies getting rich by shooting FT, and heck some of us like our participation awards because we've "been there and done that with the AAFTA thing" before. BTW I have a hundred ribbons and little medals I'll sell yuh for $20 even though they cost me $20,000 over the years. Most of them won in a AAFTA division, but so what, its the memories and fun that amounted to the real award. The corruptible crown don't mean nothin on the other side and not much here either.

I'd be curious to see how well Lauren would do if she used the other aids allowed in the three 20 fpe divisions with her 12 fpe rifle??? As if...LOL

In a decade or two FT will be almost non existent because us old guys are loosing it and the younger crowd are less interested in this sport than ever before. Better do something quickly to revive the sport now, how ever that looks, and in spite of the past paradigms.

 

[K]

Agreed that it's not an official award, but it exists in the minds of the competitors. And not just mine, go up a few comments to find a match director that's been in the game for 30+? years say the same. And you don't have to look very hard to find the Hunter shooter making the comment about how he's been the highest score at more than one nationals, because I've seen multiple instances on the forums where he has done so, and way before this current discussion.

We all want to win our class, and the cherry on top is to have shot the highest score of anyone on the course that day.

Which again, make one 20fpe class and then high score is THE winner, like it should be.

I couldn't give a rats ass about match high score. I struggle enough within WFTF.

 

[dayjd]

Moderator, Please delete this first post. I didn't realize it wanted to post twice. Thank you

Greetings I'm Back! Not exactly pleased the way I shot but that's Life. I have had a lot of Low's and High's in this game. I started playing in 2006 at the of age of 60 and managed to win my first National in 2010 in Maryland in the good old 12X days. At that match we had about 25 competitors and a few were Hunter piston. My match score was far from the High Open and WFTF was even higher shooting their first legal Year. My biggest accomplished feat at that time was shooting against Charles Garvey the second day who owns at least two Hunter Nationals and a few Pistol Nationals. He was one of the best shooters at that time I have ever faced. I always thought of Charles as a rule pusher who was 15 years or so younger. His demise was that he was caught cheating in the 2015 Nationals in Michigan. AFFTA threw him out and ended his hunter career. Bottom line, he was such a good shooter that he didn't need to cheat but different thing motivate different. After his left he had sold one of his scopes on the old yellow to a shooter that complained that the scope had been doctored to up in magnafication and he wanted his money back. The seller was denying it and refused to reimburse him to return the scope. So that kinda ended my admiration for Charles and all the dirty techniques he used over the years. Maybe Charles wasn't as good as I thought he was.

Right now I must start a new paragraph for if they are too long one of my foes fall a sleep before they are finsihed reading it.

My main reason for wanting a higher power scope in Hunter class was not only to have the ability to range find better, see mirage better, see smaller shot up Kill zones better, and to see wind effects better at the longer distances, but to have the hunter class all with scopes they can do all these things. Then no more "Charles" can sneek into our class and have an edge on all of us. If you think they can't well, you're as blind as I was.

As far as bragging rights to being the high scorer. I'm not a bragger and never have been. It is not that important to me, I feel selfconscience when I brag and my parents taught me better.

This is all about an easy way to keep the field level the Hunter class which has been my game for the last 16 years. They are the only ones that officially kick my butt with the same aids we all use. I kinda like that. (I Think)

As far as the Unlimited class goes we have so many cooks in the kitchen that that meal will never get served and it is evident to me that as an organization we just have too many Insecurities.

Bill Day

 

[dayjd]

Grettings I'm Back! Not exactly pleased the way I shot but that's Life. I have had a lot of Low's and High's in this game. I started playing in 2006 at the of age of 60 and managed to win my first National in 2010 in Maryland in the good old 12X days. At that match we had about 25 competitors and a few were Hunter piston. My match score was far from the High Open and WFTF was even higher shooting their first legal Year. My biggest accomplishment at that time was shooting against Charles Garvey the second day who owns at least two Hunter Nationals and a few Pistol Nationals. He was one of the best shooters at that time I have ever faced. I always thought of Charles as a rule pusher who was 15 years or so younger. His demise was that he was caught cheating in the 2015 Nationals in Michigan. AFFTA threw him out and ended his hunter career. Bottom line, he was such a good shooter that he didn't need to cheat but different things motivate different people. After he left he had sold one of his scopes on the old yellow to a shooter that complained that the scope had been doctored to up in magnafication and he wanted his money back. The seller was denying it and refused to reimburse him to return the scope. So that kinda ended my admiration for Charles and all the dirty techniques he used over the years. Maybe Charles wasn't as good as I thought he was.

Right now I must start a new paragraph for if they are too long one of my foes fall asleep before they are finsihed reading it.

My main reason for wanting a higher power scope in Hunter class was not only to have the ability to range find better, see mirage better, see smaller shot up Kill zones better, and to see wind effects better at the longer distances, but to have the hunter class all with scopes they can do all these things. Then no more "Charles" can sneek into our class and have an edge on all of us. If you think they can't well, you're as blind as I was.

As far as bragging rights to being the high scorer. I'm not a bragger and never have been. It is not that important to me, I feel selfconscience when I brag and my parents taught me better.

This is all about an easy way to keep the field level in the Hunter class which has been my game for the last 16 years. They are the only ones that officially kick my butt with the same aids we all use. I kinda like that. (I Think)

As far as the Unlimited class goes we have so many cooks in the kitchen that that meal will never get served and it is evident to me that as an organization we just have too many Insecurities.

Bill Day

 

[dayjd]

You say Hunter isn't competing against Open or WFTF but yet point out that Hunter class shooters have been high match score at two west coast nationals. And I've seen that shooter point out the same thing numerous times.

Which is it then? Are Hunter class shooters comparing their scores to non-hunter class shooters or are they not?

Franklink, Little late to the party on this one but the fact that one shooter no matter which class ends up with the high score is how it works. It doesn't mean we know what their score will be before the match starts. It could be said that so & so always beats the other classes but that just isn't true. No matter how you look at it the hunter class shouldn't be besting Open class every year and we don't. It doesn't fit other to say maybe hunter shooters practice more and quite likely better shooters than the open class. Open shooters should be the top class based on the 20ft/lbs and the aids available to them, but I don't see that happening very much anymore. Just over the weekend at the 2022 Nationals The high WFTF shooter was107/120 and High overall. The high in Open was a 91/120 and the high Hunter was 100 and we are a 20 ft/lbs. Could definately say the WFTF has better shooters and hard to deny. The wind was very tricky
at times and sun boiling down at close to 100degrees. Light pellets at low power are not suppose to work very well in the wind.???

Agreed that it's not an official award, but it exists in the minds of the competitors. And not just mine, go up a few comments to find a match director that's been in the game for 30+? years say the same. And you don't have to look very hard to find the Hunter shooter making the comment about how he's been the highest score at more than one nationals, because I've seen multiple instances on the forums where he has done so, and way before this current discussion.

We all want to win our class, and the cherry on top is to have shot the highest score of anyone on the course that day.

Which again, make one 20fpe class and then high score is THE winner, like it should be.

Franklink, your last two comments puzzel me.

 

[Franklink]

....Franklink, Little late to the party on this one but the fact that one shooter no matter which class ends up with the high score is how it works. It doesn't mean we know what their score will be before the match starts...... No matter how you look at it the hunter class shouldn't be besting Open class every year and we don't.


Franklink, your last two comments puzzel me.

I'll try again....
Yes, someone will shoot the high overall score. I agree, that is just how it works. The point I've been trying to make is that everyone is competing on the same course so why don't we just combine everything so that we're all in the same class and then the person that shot best is the recognized winner, instead of having 4 other guys, who didn't do as well, who go home and tell their wives they won the match.

I don't see any reason why Hunter class shouldn't be beating the Open or any other class. Many have pointed out here that things must be pretty even as the rules currently stand or we would have one class always with the highest score.

So, do away with all the classes, or at least only recognize the guys with the highest scores. A less desirable alternative to that is to just leave it as the current mess of too many classes and not enough competitors.

Another class and additional complication of allowed equipment in this class but not that class is not field targets salvation.

 

[oldsparky]

Looking back on the summer I keep coming back to the fact that at 20 fpe the existing divisions are so close to the same in scores that there are no distinct advantages to be realized in a match where there are positionals. Same with a proposed Unlimited division as long as shooting sticks are not allowed in it for offhand or kneeling if it were to get voted in(as far as high match score goes). It's almost always the person that gets the most hits in the positional lanes, as well as makes the least mental mistakes, and just as important figures out the wind the best that gets the highest score. It's literally only one point that decides who wins and a piece of equipment isn't going to be the deciding factor there with whats currently allowed now for positionals.

I know how steady I was in Open when I was younger using a harness and thigh rest and I'm not any steadier now in Freestyle, not even if I used my tripod and clamped in(tripod not that great), or if I were to shoot in Hunter off sticks. The ONLY time I was more steady was when attached bipods were allowed and I was down prone. Even back then I would still clip a piece of grass or leaf here and there because I was low to the ground which would mess up my score. So an attached bipod I found to be no better for my scores, and well 12x. Maybe if the lanes were perfectly cleared of things in the way but.... When I was shooting then in Hunter I would always try my best to weed eat real good. Nope I'd always get tricked by clipping something.

Look at Kent, he's in his late 60's, and he can range good enough at 16x to be the match winner most of the summer, often close to perfect scores. Same with Rex and Steve Q at the NM match. They wouldn't have done any better if they'd had 50x scopes, harnesses, thigh rests, risers, shooting jackets, or slings.

IMHO the conclusion that there is a definite advantage in any of the 20 fpe divisions is only an illusion invented in the minds of men. It's only a fear that people have that somehow Unlimited would dominate or be unfair to the other divisions. The only way anyone would dominate any division is to practice a fair amount.
When I got the high score at state years ago while in Freestyle the main reasons were that I was lifting weights, younger and in good shape, and practicing for the match. I got the high score because I missed very few positionals.

No matter how much the AAFTA tries to make the three 20 fpe divisions perfectly equal its not going to be based in reality because in the end its the best shooter that will rise to the top. In other words its more political than anything else by trying not to piss people off that have the notion stuck in their head that Unlimited is scary and no other division would stand a chance.

Except an Unlimited division would lure new shooters easier because they would feel comfortable using their normal scope and a LRF which they often already own, would also give the people with eye problems an alternate by using a LRF. And they won't feel like they are in the special Olympics of FT like they would now. If these new people are so inclined they can always try another division later on.

I'm all for combining all the 20 fpe divisions into one. Talk about easy for MD's! As if that's ever going to happen.

I also like Wayne's idea of giving people a choice to shoot at a smaller KZ while sitting(As if that'll ever happen), instead of expecting people with ailments to engage the positionals when its likely they'll miss most of them. They might even enjoy the sport more because after all we do this for fun, right, and nobodies getting rich by shooting FT, and heck some of us like our participation awards because we've "been there and done that with the AAFTA thing" before. BTW I have a hundred ribbons and little medals I'll sell yuh for $20 even though they cost me $20,000 over the years. Most of them won in a AAFTA division, but so what, its the memories and fun that amounted to the real award. The corruptible crown don't mean nothin on the other side and not much here either.

I'd be curious to see how well Lauren would do if she used the other aids allowed in the three 20 fpe divisions with her 12 fpe rifle??? As if...LOL

In a decade or two FT will be almost non existent because us old guys are loosing it and the younger crowd are less interested in this sport than ever before. Better do something quickly to revive the sport now, how ever that looks, and in spite of the past paradigms.

If we are concerned about FT dying off. I think the answer to attracting more shooters is to hold shoots on a regular basis. Our FT equipment is rather specific, and it is not cheap. Not everyone is willing to tie up a large sum of money in equipment that will be used a few times a year. Every shooting discipline I have shot over the years have not had seasons. Every time I have brought this up someone will say with our temperatures we can't shoot but a few months a year. I never have attempted to argue but if we are serious about our sport growing. I don't think continuing like we are will get us anywhere! If we wanted to shoot the summers we could! Put up a couple shades. and have water available. Start the shoot in the morning hours. We put a lot of energy into a couple big matches. But those won't draw many new shooters.

 

[dayjd]

I'll try again....
Yes, someone will shoot the high overall score. I agree, that is just how it works. The point I've been trying to make is that everyone is competing on the same course so why don't we just combine everything so that we're all in the same class and then the person that shot best is the recognized winner, instead of having 4 other guys, who didn't do as well, who go home and tell their wives they won the match.

I don't see any reason why Hunter class shouldn't be beating the Open or any other class. Many have pointed out here that things must be pretty even as the rules currently stand or we would have one class always with the highest score.

So, do away with all the classes, or at least only recognize the guys with the highest scores. A less desirable alternative to that is to just leave it as the current mess of too many classes and not enough competitors.

Another class and additional complication of allowed equipment in this class but not that class is not field targets salvation.

The point is Frank, All classes are not equal and I agree with you that there should be only one class but all equipment is not equal. Maybe that is what this BS is all about. If we want to combined all classes together then the Open and WFTF class will need to learn to shoot off a bucket and bipod or combinding classes will never happen. Pull Hunter classes out of AFFTA and you'll be down to about half the participation you have now. The UK Hunter shooters broke away from the WFTF and have their own Org. I think the way our Hunter class rules work are much more appealing than what the UK has. I would hope that this would not happen here in the U.S but it may be the only viable way to consider our class equal to the other AFFTA classes. The only thing we are really asking to do is be allowed the same scope power as the Open and WFTF or even maybe 24X would work for us. We are not asking for the world but just a little more of a level playing field. I encourage the Open and WFTF classes to turn their scopes down to 16x and notice if it makes any difference to their scores or take off their shooting jackets and see how many forced position shots they make. In most matches that advantage is what separates the Top Tier from the Bottom Tiers. They can Keep all the extra aids they are allowed and let us know how their scores look. I can hear them laughing now!