Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?

[dayjd]

Looking back @ 10 years or so when personally introduced to the FT game/s, The use of any sort of "BI-POD" was only something the newly formed hunter class allowed. No other classes had used or would ever use them to this day. In that time it became an issue that ATTACHED bi-pods were so stable when used by those able to shoot prone, attachment was prohibited and where we hunter shooters have been now for 7-8 years.

Point to be made ...
* When we look at OPEN class and there afforded gear which is legal, the only piece of apparatus they can't use is an unattached Bi-Pod

Would it not be a viable thing with the evolution of hunter class and the Bi-pod being now used by more AAFTA Field target competitors among all shooters.
That, adding this one tool to the gear a Open shooter can use ? ** NOT a bucket or high seat tho !!!! If you can's sit on the ground or a bumm bag then you won't be shooting open with a Bi-pod

Hunter class stays as it currently is ...
Open gets to use shooting sticks ONLY WHILE SEATED at ground level/bagged ...

** Hunter shooters can already sit on the ground / bag and use there sticks ... FYI

This while not unilaterally giving all everything ... It does give opportunity for an otherwise hunter shooter to get his big glass and some other afforded gear IF he/she can get off a bucket or stool to the ground and shoot as such OPEN class.

NO NEW CLASS is established and Open becomes very close to what an unlimited / freestyle class would become .. Except being able to sit on a bucket or stool.

This is so simple a process and IMO makes the most sense.

Scott Schneider
SVFTC Match Director

Scott, It seems to me that you have wandered off track from you explanation to me in the early days of " Is the Open class slowly dying" or something like that. The fact is 95% of the Hunter class use buckets / seats and bipods. Are you saying the ones that sit on a bum bag can use the Big Glass now or they have to go to open and sit on the ground to use sticks with the Big glass? As far as Open class using sticks I would be very surprised if many or any gave up their harness for the bipod. Their harness is keeping some of them in the game now. I know we would like to appease every class but I question if this is the way to do it. Think small get nothing ... Think big and get something. Just my thoughts Scott

 

[Centercut]

This is an interesting thread, and also a history lesson... From a Newby's point of view, it seems the expression from my Navy Submariner days fits perfectly - "if its not broke, don't fix it".
Already even with the 16x scope and substandard range finding, the Hunter seems to more and more be the high overall score at most of the major matches, at least here in the West area... Do we really need to shoot even higher scores?

 

[Franklink]

Maybe I misunderstood.......
But I think Scott is suggesting that we leave Hunter as-is but allow a bipod in Open class. Thought being that a guy in love with his bipod could use big glass in Open, as long as he's willing to sit on a bum bag.

Interesting.

 

[Airgunoregon]

Scott,
I'm not sure why you would restrict seat height. The purpose I was seeing for the Unlimited was to allow older, or folks who can't make their body do what they use to.... to use ALL the goodies that AAFTA allows in all classes.

Keep in mind that Match Directors can always consolidate classes at the GPs or even the Nationals, when less than 3 shooting a class... for award purposes. The Grand Prix scoring is still kept separately by AAFTA by class.
So, making too many classes is not really an issue as far as I see it.

Wayne

 

[isledweller]

My offer Since 2016......................

 

[Airgunoregon]

My offer Since 2016......................

View attachment 290978

How did that season go??

How many participates?
How did Open class like it?

Wayne

 

[Airgunoregon]

Sorry, I'm gonna muddy the water a bit with this idea from the past as well..

Many years ago, LD and I and later Jim W. and I had talked about a list of amenities that the competitor could choose from, but not all. I can't remember what we came up with, but it was something like this. JW might tune in and still have the doc.

This would mean two classes only... PCP and Piston.

If you shot 12fpe or under you could choose 4 items
If you shot over 12fpe and under 20fpe, then only choose 3 items... if I remember right.. I think LD had a sliding scale with the FPE with different choices along the way.

You would list all the things or support items in all AAFTA classes.

Any power scope or limit to set at 16 by default
Harness
Bi Pod
Shooting Jacket
Sling
Thigh Rest
Butt Hook
Bucket and default to any height bucket or no back stool.

Etc can't remember all the goodies allowed.


Wayne

 

[isledweller]

Wayne,

I started this option in 2016 and has stood the same for what will be 7 full seasons at the end of this one. A few have taken me up on it just so that they felt there was a place for them to continue to enjoy the game at their increased age.

The reason there has not been a lot of participation is that it is an unrecognized AAFTA class and a lot of our people use my matches for practice for regionals and such.

I believe there was just 1 time where a "BCSA Open" shooter beat an AAFTA Open shooter.

Either way and no matter the outcome of any discussions and or possible future votes, BCSA will always be offering this as long as I'm in charge. We want people to come, enjoy themselves and have a place to fit in with the way they want to participate.

Greg

 

[dayjd]

This is an interesting thread, and also a history lesson... From a Newby's point of view, it seems the expression from my Navy Submariner days fits perfectly - "if its not broke, don't fix it".
Already even with the 16x scope and substandard range finding, the Hunter seems to more and more be the high overall score at most of the major matches, at least here in the West area... Do we really need to shoot even higher scores?

Remember, we are not competing against the other classes but only our own class. Some prefer to just compete against the course and some like to compete against them selves and that's okay to. Once in a great while the high score of a FT match does end up being from the hunter class but it is not something that happens often. FT courses can and have been cleaned but I have never seen anyone clean one although I have heard that a few have been cleaned in the past. The more our equipment and class rules are alike the level the playing field will be for all classes. However, that's a swift steam to cross because we all have different resources and don't all have the same priorities.

 

[dayjd]

Sorry, I'm gonna muddy the water a bit with this idea from the past as well..

Many years ago, LD and I and later Jim W. and I had talked about a list of amenities that the competitor could choose from, but not all. I can't remember what we came up with, but it was something like this. JW might tune in and still have the doc.

This would mean two classes only... PCP and Piston.

If you shot 12fpe or under you could choose 4 items
If you shot over 12fpe and under 20fpe, then only choose 3 items... if I remember right.. I think LD had a sliding scale with the FPE with different choices along the way.

You would list all the things or support items in all AAFTA classes.

Any power scope or limit to set at 16 by default
Harness
Bi Pod
Shooting Jacket
Sling
Thigh Rest
Butt Hook
Bucket and default to any height bucket or no back stool.

Etc can't remember all the goodies allowed.


Wayne

Wayne, It would be interesting in seeing what parity comes out of all using 16X but as you know that pig won't fly

 

[Motorhead]

What I was suggesting ...

Hunter stays the Same ...
Open stays the Same, BUT a Tripod added to equipment that could be used if wishing too ? Harness use is unaffected. Still shot from a low seating position !
* Can't see a Harness and Sticks working together ... Any shooter has a choice of using either & still be in OPEN Class.

Only thing we WOULD NOT GET is basically Open Class NOT Able to be shot from a Seat / Bucket which would be Unlimited IMO.

Did not think it was confusing ...

 

[BC]

OK, all this unlimited class stuff is driving me crazy. We used to have unlimited class in Arizona, and a couple people still shoot it, however its not an AAFTA recognized class, so why waste time shooting it in a GP (just for fun, you can do that at home in your yard), the comraderie, perhaps. But theres no way I would drive across the country to shoot for fun. Besides in my opinion, going shooting in a field at metal targets shouldnt involving clamping your gun in a tripod, carrying the tripod and gun along the way, using a range finder, and touching the trigger like bench rest guys. If you want to clamp your gun in a tripod, join the benchrest guys at the range. True you still have to figure wind, but winds a way easier monster to figure out at 20 ft lbs and shooting heavy pellets. . Obviously I shoot the minority class in WFTF. I choose to shoot it because my body works for getting into position to shoot and I enjoy shooting those 8.4 pellets at 785 fps. If you shoot 12 ft lbs, you will become a better shooter and wind reader in the process. Ive got nothing against Hunter or Open or Springers. When I shoot, I am not shooting against other classes. When springer guys shoot theyre not shooting against PCPs etc. Youre either a sub 12 fpe shooter or a plus 12 fpe shooter, up to 20 fpe. If people think Open is dwindling, maybe lump it into Hunter, and make the NEW Hunter division able to shoot with the rules of each divisions as one, combining what they want to use from each class. IE: shoot off a bumbag with short sticks and harness, shoot off a bucket with 50x scope, and sticks etc. And of course there would always be WFTF Springer and Open springer. theres no way to lump them together and must remain seperated.

Just my views, now go ahead and beat up the messenger with your ideas. BC

OOPS, I missed Isledweller's post above.....Just like that...............BC

 

[Motorhead]

Scott, It seems to me that you have wandered off track from you explanation to me in the early days of " Is the Open class slowly dying" or something like that. The fact is 95% of the Hunter class use buckets / seats and bipods. Are you saying the ones that sit on a bum bag can use the Big Glass now or they have to go to open and sit on the ground to use sticks with the Big glass? As far as Open class using sticks I would be very surprised if many or any gave up their harness for the bipod. Their harness is keeping some of them in the game now. I know we would like to appease every class but I question if this is the way to do it. Think small get nothing ... Think big and get something. Just my thoughts Scott

Mr Day, Please read post #33 above for clarification

 

[K]

Since Hunter is the salvation of Field Target, it should be modified to suit the masses. My suggestion has been to allow LRF usage. That way some kid with a $200 used Discovery and a Wally World scope will come out and kick ass on guys with a ton of free time and money to buy all the high zoot equipment.

Make it easy for guys in their 20's who might be working but don't have a boatload of free time cuz they've got jobs.

But, are we really trying to grow the sport? or find ways to spend more money on high zoot equipment that we think will solve the worlds problems.

 

[dayjd]

OK, all this unlimited class stuff is driving me crazy. We used to have unlimited class in Arizona, and a couple people still shoot it, however its not an AAFTA recognized class, so why waste time shooting it in a GP (just for fun, you can do that at home in your yard), the comraderie, perhaps. But theres no way I would drive across the country to shoot for fun. Besides in my opinion, going shooting in a field at metal targets shouldnt involving clamping your gun in a tripod, carrying the tripod and gun along the way, using a range finder, and touching the trigger like bench rest guys. If you want to clamp your gun in a tripod, join the benchrest guys at the range. True you still have to figure wind, but winds a way easier monster to figure out at 20 ft lbs and shooting heavy pellets. . Obviously I shoot the minority class in WFTF. I choose to shoot it because my body works for getting into position to shoot and I enjoy shooting those 8.4 pellets at 785 fps. If you shoot 12 ft lbs, you will become a better shooter and wind reader in the process. Ive got nothing against Hunter or Open or Springers. When I shoot, I am not shooting against other classes. When springer guys shoot theyre not shooting against PCPs etc. Youre either a sub 12 fpe shooter or a plus 12 fpe shooter, up to 20 fpe. If people think Open is dwindling, maybe lump it into Hunter, and make the NEW Hunter division able to shoot with the rules of each divisions as one, combining what they want to use from each class. IE: shoot off a bumbag with short sticks and harness, shoot off a bucket with 50x scope, and sticks etc. And of course there would always be WFTF Springer and Open springer. theres no way to lump them together and must remain seperated.

Just my views, now go ahead and beat up the messenger with your ideas. BC

OOPS, I missed Isledweller's pos

 

[dayjd]

Mr Day, Please read post #33 above for clarification

Motorhead, I have read it three times. How about in the post

Is Open class suffering a slow death?​

Please read on page 4 threads #74,75,76 and tell me what are you thinking in that post. It is Polar opposite from where you are now. ref. #22 above

 

[Motorhead]

I'm trying to find common ground that may get traction ... any of my thoughts would work.
really trying to find a way to grow the activity & interest in FT. But like you tho for a longer period of time am getting tired of beating my head on the wall !!
Jim Cyran felt similar and gave up the AAFTA BOG fight a few years ago. God bless him !

 

[steve123]

OK, all this unlimited class stuff is driving me crazy. We used to have unlimited class in Arizona, and a couple people still shoot it, however its not an AAFTA recognized class, so why waste time shooting it in a GP (just for fun, you can do that at home in your yard), the comraderie, perhaps. But theres no way I would drive across the country to shoot for fun. Besides in my opinion, going shooting in a field at metal targets shouldnt involving clamping your gun in a tripod, carrying the tripod and gun along the way, using a range finder, and touching the trigger like bench rest guys. If you want to clamp your gun in a tripod, join the benchrest guys at the range. True you still have to figure wind, but winds a way easier monster to figure out at 20 ft lbs and shooting heavy pellets. . Obviously I shoot the minority class in WFTF. I choose to shoot it because my body works for getting into position to shoot and I enjoy shooting those 8.4 pellets at 785 fps. If you shoot 12 ft lbs, you will become a better shooter and wind reader in the process. Ive got nothing against Hunter or Open or Springers. When I shoot, I am not shooting against other classes. When springer guys shoot theyre not shooting against PCPs etc. Youre either a sub 12 fpe shooter or a plus 12 fpe shooter, up to 20 fpe. If people think Open is dwindling, maybe lump it into Hunter, and make the NEW Hunter division able to shoot with the rules of each divisions as one, combining what they want to use from each class. IE: shoot off a bumbag with short sticks and harness, shoot off a bucket with 50x scope, and sticks etc. And of course there would always be WFTF Springer and Open springer. theres no way to lump them together and must remain seperated.

Just my views, now go ahead and beat up the messenger with your ideas. BC

OOPS, I missed Isledweller's post above.....Just like that...............BC

BC

Sorry this grates on your nerves and drives you crazy. You are welcome to your opinion, as am I. If its something one enjoys and doesn't harm others then its not a waist of time, right?! Freestyle/Unlimited is its own unoffcial class so how can it harm someone else.

This is a fun time of experimentation in my life. I shot prone off of a attached bipod on and off for a couple years in Hunter when 12x magnification was allowed. Then shot my own Unlimited thing for a year or two before we had an unofficial Unlimited class at Mormon lake using whatever magnification I wanted, also an attached bipod, and horror of horrors a rear bag and LRF.
After that about the time the club started the unofficial Freestyle class I tried my tripod too and did that for a couple years.

Before the above I had shot Open for many years and got bored with it. I just wanted to try out different ways to shoot FT since I had made a commitment to set up the courses and had to be there anyway. Obviously I could have cared less what others thought about what I did and frankly if I hadn't done what I did I would have left the sport for who knows how long.

This year I've been using shooting sticks, not the tripod, but still use the LRF. Experimenting....
BTW my daughter Abby shot a perfect score last month using the sticks and my Thomas in Freestyle!

Speaking of perfect scores for me its about trying for a perfect score which is very very seldom. Something I've only done once in Open years ago and a few times in Unlimited. I'm pretty sure that will never happen again in any AAFTA class mostly because of my age.

You mentioned this - (just for fun, you can do that at home in your yard)
I don't have but a few FT targets, have to mow lanes for them, set out strings, then put everything away later. Sorry but the GP's are more fun and yes there's the social aspect, and maybe a prize involved even though its not AAFTA recognized. I had fun in my own way and that's what mattered to me. Also I don't go to win, I go to knock targets down, and as many as I can, that's the fun part. The opposite to me would be If I shot in WFTF because I'd be lucky to get 50%, so it would be more frustrating than anything else to me.

Nevertheless I don't plan on traveling much out of state and if an official or unofficial Unlimited class is allowed here in AZ I'll try to go. BTW I pay the entry fee like everyone else, like at the Sonoran GP last year when using my tripod, and this year with sticks at the state GP match last weekend. It's called "Free" style for a reason, presently anything sub 20 fpe flies, including tripods, so I personally am unconcerned if some are offended by this kind of thing.

Just let people have fun.....

 

[Scotchmo]

steve123
+
It can be slightly annoying when we are not allowed to use a piece of equipment/tool that we would like to try. More annoying is when we are REQUIRED to use a specific specific piece of equipment/tool. Something to remember for the rule-makers.

 

[Airgunoregon]

You know like BCSA did in 2016, any number of AAFTA clubs can agree to a set of Unlimited class rules even though AAFTA hasn't adopted it yet... or maybe never will.
I would suggest that the test 20fpe Unlimited class would simply be:
any item/aid/position already allowed in any AAFTA class would we allowed in the Unlimited class.

If there were consistent rules across the testing clubs, a separate unofficial GP could be kept on the side among participating clubs possibly.

It can be a test of sorts for AAFTA and the clubs to review for a future decision.

Wayne