Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?

[dayjd]

You know like BCSA did in 2016, any number of AAFTA clubs can agree to a set of Unlimited class rules even though AAFTA hasn't adopted it yet... or maybe never will.
I would suggest that the test 20fpe Unlimited class would simply be:
any item/aid/position already allowed in any AAFTA class would we allowed in the Unlimited class.

If there were consistent rules across the testing clubs, a separate unofficial GP could be kept on the side among participating clubs possibly.

It can be a test of sorts for AAFTA and the clubs to review for a future decision.

Wayne

Wayne, God and the forums knows I've led my fair number of surveys / Polls on these very similiar changes and the Bog said we needed to get 66% of the clubs to favor it before they would take it up. They didn't require that for the orgin of the Hunter class or WFTF class. Even though we are the biggest class and have been for sometime they always treat us like the unwanted step child. You or someone do a survey for who favors the unlimited / free style class being a full legal class in AFFTA and if the Poll is favorable I will present it to the Chairman at the October Nationals when we have it in PR. I know I have my fingers crossed that it will still happen but right now it is still be planned for. There is no good reason this unlimited / Freestyle class should be held back any longer! As long as we keep with the rules of the classes that are legal now and come up with one Ligit name (Unlimited or Freestyle) we should be able to get this ratified for next year. What do you think?
Bill
P.S I know I said "I will never step into that pool again but I think the water is clearing up.

 

[Scotchmo]

... As long as we keep with the rules of the classes that are legal now and come up with one Ligit name (Unlimited or Freestyle) we should be able to get this ratified for next year. What do you think?
...

That name would then be Unlimited.

Freestyle often includes LRF, tripods, attached bipods, etc.

If it's a new Division and not combining existing Divisions, why not Freestyle? Just asking.

 

[dayjd]

Scott, for me the name is less important than the new game. In fact I know you to be a very intelligent guy and I would much rather have you representing us than myself. Also back when we were beating this horse in our minutemen campaign 5 or 6 years ago Hector Medina was willing to help us and I have a very high opinion of Hector as well. So, you or him or both of you would be much more successful representing this new class than I could be.
I guestion if it would be a new Division or new Class. We have always referred to the different games we play as classes in AAFTA or at least I always have. The main idea is to promote our game and keep those we have for as long as we can and at the same time build a class or division with growth potential.

 

[rich177]

This topic has been discussed to death. I could argue it either way for and against. At Falls we allowed for an unlimited type class for some time now. At first it got some traction but now almost nobody wants to shoot that way. We already have 3 Divisions with two classes in each which means that the match director has to figure out at least six winners with possible awards for each. The more Divisions/classes we run the closer we get to giving everyone a participation award and I do not believe that changing rules and adding classes will grow the sport.
IMHSA has umpteen classes so they have a class for almost any pistol you can think of.. Where does that get them? We are the only club in the northeast that runs IMHSA pistol silhouette and we get so few shooters that it has been combined with our lever action silhouette matches. Last month we had 3 IMHSA shooters, THREE!
How many times have you heard or seen a post saying someone would try Field Target if there was a match nearby. FT needs more matches in more places and I also think easier courses would help much more than Division/rule changes.

Respectfully,
Rick Bassett
Former Match Director (for 30+ years).

 

[Airgunoregon]

This topic has been discussed to death. I could argue it either way for and against. At Falls we allowed for an unlimited type class for some time now. At first it got some traction but now almost nobody wants to shoot that way. We already have 3 Divisions with two classes in each which means that the match director has to figure out at least six winners with possible awards for each. The more Divisions/classes we run the closer we get to giving everyone a participation award and I do not believe that changing rules and adding classes will grow the sport.
IMHSA has umpteen classes so they have a class for almost any pistol you can think of.. Where does that get them? We are the only club in the northeast that runs IMHSA pistol silhouette and we get so few shooters that it has been combined with our lever action silhouette matches. Last month we had 3 IMHSA shooters, THREE!
How many times have you heard or seen a post saying someone would try Field Target if there was a match nearby. FT needs more matches in more places and I also think easier courses would help much more than Division/rule changes.

Respectfully,
Rick Bassett
Former Match Director (for 30+ years).

Rick,
MDs can consolidate classes with less than three contestants... so more classes or divisions are not an issue for me, but in general I hear you. If that is our concern, then the other post I made #29 solves that issue.

I think if Unlimited was an official AAFTA class, participation would go up a whole lot. And in the short term until it becomes official, If we kept a separate GP scoring for the new Unlimited class with an unofficial award from the clubs that participate.... then that might also increase participation until AAFTA gets on board.

Wayne

 

[dayjd]

This topic has been discussed to death. I could argue it either way for and against. At Falls we allowed for an unlimited type class for some time now. At first it got some traction but now almost nobody wants to shoot that way. We already have 3 Divisions with two classes in each which means that the match director has to figure out at least six winners with possible awards for each. The more Divisions/classes we run the closer we get to giving everyone a participation award and I do not believe that changing rules and adding classes will grow the sport.
IMHSA has umpteen classes so they have a class for almost any pistol you can think of.. Where does that get them? We are the only club in the northeast that runs IMHSA pistol silhouette and we get so few shooters that it has been combined with our lever action silhouette matches. Last month we had 3 IMHSA shooters, THREE!
How many times have you heard or seen a post saying someone would try Field Target if there was a match nearby. FT needs more matches in more places and I also think easier courses would help much more than Division/rule changes.

Respectfully,
Rick Bassett
Former Match Director (for 30+ years).

Rich, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Yea or Nay? Almost everyone has an opinion on the best way to grow the game but nothing is getting done. The Worlds coming have a few very excited and I expect more shooters to at least try to shoot WFTF but after the games are over most of us will be back in our favorite class because most of us are a little too old for the stamina needed to compete at that level. In the last year I have seen more friends and acquaintances called off the range then any other years I can remember. It isn't going to get any better and I really don't know what the answer is but in my mind trying something is better than doing nothing.
Bill Day

 

[dayjd]

Rick,
MDs can consolidate classes with less than three contestants... so more classes or divisions are not an issue for me, but in general I hear you. If that is our concern, then the other post I made #29 solves that issue.

I think if Unlimited was an official AAFTA class, participation would go up a whole lot. And in the short term until it becomes official, If we kept a separate GP scoring for the new Unlimited class with an unofficial award from the clubs that participate.... then that might also increase participation until AAFTA gets on board.

Wayne

Wayne, the idea on it's face has merit but it would be a bitch to police on who is shooting what. Maybe if match Director or a Field Marshall check everyones Score card, equipment, ect., and class they are qualified to shoot before they enter the course it might work. Other than chronograph that is about all that is checked at the GP's and Nationals. I think that would get old real fast the more I think about it. It sounds like All classes would have to be in agreement to try this and I'm sure it would be harder to get through the BOG than just one class.

 

[beerthief]

I like the Idea "just let people have fun" but every contest needs some sort of rules.
Maybe an "old farts open class" but then you have to define "old fart" can't be age because at 77 i do not have any limits that would effect FT
Maybe just have open shoot's anybody can come out a shoot FT along with the guys that are contesting . then you are either obeying the rules or your just having fun .
EDIT: FPE and lead pellets rules so as to protect the targets .

 

[thane]

... anyone up for a spec hunter class, low entry cost ceiling, limited equipment list, increase accessibility with greater parity...

 

[Airgunoregon]

... anyone up for a spec hunter class, low entry cost ceiling, limited equipment list, increase accessibility with greater parity...

Unlimited with a suggested retail price limit???

Wayne

 

[Airgunoregon]

Ok let us make a realistic list:
Decent scope or low price scope and range finder- $450 at least
Air rifle - $700
Accessories.. bucket, bipod, harness etc.. say $250
Total $1,400 ish?
Wayne

 

[Motorhead]

Unlimited = ... Shoot on the cheap or expensive ... KNOCK THE DAMN TARGET DOWN If you can ... CLASS !!!

If we vote that way ? ... any and all AAFTA individual class apparatus applies at > 20 fpe

This month feeling like a bag and harness is doable, but perhaps next match my backs screwed up or knees are sore, so a bucket and sticks .... My eyes are ok and find great challenge in shooting at 16x, yet next season or two my eyes are not what they were so Glass X power up.

This is what the class should be IMO ... FOR NO MATTER what equipment choosen to use IT IS STILL ABOUT THE SHOOTER AGAINST THE COURSE and NOT an equipment race.

 

[tjmac]

Greg's rules at BCSA are pretty much what Canadian rules for Open Division have been all along. We have added slightly to that with a subclass that takes all positionals from their chosen position. However, we have started creating extra lanes in place of the positionals that have standard difficulty targets. We did this because shooting the positional lanes from your chosen position was simply a gift of points. It is the fastest growing class we have as the age of our shooters is very similar to what has been mentioned earlier for AAFTA.

Tim

 

[thane]

Ok let us make a realistic list:
Decent scope or low price scope and range finder- $450 at least
Air rifle - $700
Accessories.. bucket, bipod, harness etc.. say $250
Total $1,400 ish?
Wayne

Something like that... or a score multiplier as you deviate from median cost. Score 22 targets with a $800 rig net a 1.6 multiplier= 35 points do it with a $3000 kit get a 0.7 multiplier your 50 target net 35 points. the handicapper general.

Something to keep the match directors from getting bored...

 

[L.Leon]

Since Hunter is the salvation of Field Target, it should be modified to suit the masses. My suggestion has been to allow LRF usage. That way some kid with a $200 used Discovery and a Wally World scope will come out and kick ass on guys with a ton of free time and money to buy all the high zoot equipment.

Make it easy for guys in their 20's who might be working but don't have a boatload of free time cuz they've got jobs.

But, are we really trying to grow the sport? or find ways to spend more money on high zoot equipment that we think will solve the worlds problems.

If I could use a LRF and an attached bipod, like I do while pesting? I would participate in the sport. I would just be using the courses for practice and not submitting a score. Just don’t have the time to invest in “field target”, but would come out to knock down targets for fun.

 

[Kdog]

As a mainly open shooter I will give you my opinion. For me open class definitely bridged the gap from shooting Hunter class to shooting WFTF. I do not think any changes should be made to either Hunter or Open class. There has been many FT participants that I have talked to that have health ailments...either their eyes or their bodies not being what they use to be. That being said they definitely suffer shooting Hunter class because they have a hard time range finding or can't get up and down from a bum bag to shoot open or WFTF. Basically a new UNLIMITED category would suit those participants. I do think a separate set of rules should be made specific to this unlimited class. A few guys at my local club are shooting THEIR version of unlimited class but using a bipod on ALL their shots....forced lanes they are using bipods which to me is way to easy. Their scores have gone from mid 40s as a Hunter shooter to high to mid 50s every match using a bipod on ALL their shots.

I'm not opposed to having a new UNLIMITED category just leave Hunter and Open class alone. Again Open class really bridged the gap for me as I started shooting WFTF matches just recently.

 

[dayjd]

It seems almost everyone is throwing s--t against the wall to see what might stick. If we are serious about a class called unlimited than lets cut the bull and have a competent AAFTA member make a proposal to the BOG for a new class. This thread topic is about the Unlimited class. I suggested a couple candidates this morning that I think would do an excellent job presenting it to the BOG.. Haven't received any feedback but still hopeful one of them would chime in. Coming to a consensus needs to happen first and just when I think we may have one the topic gets changed. In a couple days I'm heading to a GP at Burning River and taking a break from these two Topics. Hope you guys can work something out but unless we take a stand for the rules of this new class we are only wasting bandwidth.

 

[Airgunoregon]

I think the main goal again is to keep the older competitors, and any age really, those with issues: eyes, kneeling and getting up and down off the ground....Keep them in the game.

Do we create a class that allow all equipment like Unlimited? That is not all that is needed and there has been, and continues to be resistance to the idea.

Mostly what is needed it seems to me, is a way for those mentioned above to have a fair chance to compete in the existing classes where they feel because they can't kneel, they have to take those targets offhand... which is also harder than when they were younger and more able... or they just can't shoot offhand well.

So, what if instead of the "forced position" lanes we have "Choice lanes"

It's more work for the course setters, but what if the Choice lanes had two targets for standing, two for kneeling, and two for sitting. They all have the same troyer rating. You choose either kneeling, standing or sitting... no forced positions anymore. For everyone, no special consideration for anyone.. just choices.

What ya think?
Wayne

 

[Motorhead]

I think the main goal again is to keep the older competitors, and any age really, those with issues: eyes, kneeling and getting up and down off the ground....Keep them in the game.

Do we create a class that allow all equipment like Unlimited? That is not all that is needed and there has been, and continues to be resistance to the idea.

Mostly what is needed it seems to me, is a way for those mentioned above to have a fair chance to compete in the existing classes where they feel because they can't kneel, they have to take those targets offhand... which is also harder than when they were younger and more able... or they just can't shoot offhand well.

So, what if instead of the "forced position" lanes we have "Choice lanes"

It's more work for the course setters, but what if the Choice lanes had two targets for standing, two for kneeling, and two for sitting. They all have the same troyer rating. You choose either kneeling, standing or sitting... no forced positions anymore. For everyone, no special consideration for anyone.. just choices.

What ya think?
Wayne

Now please DON'T shoot the messenger ...

What we collectively need to do is GROW THE SPORT. The age thing will find it's own equilibrium no matter what we do ... IMO
Much as us older player all would like be able to score as well as years past ... age is a real thing and no one gets younger every day.
When that times comes to do less, shoot worse etc etc etc, we as a society and FT shooters in this case need to accept it, most however will wish to change the rules to suit a personal weakness. Pride is a tough thing, We who are older have earned that right !! But WE here today by in large ARE NOT this sports future but can be stewards of a bright furure & need to do the right thing if it is to endure into the next generation & beyond.

Create a new class that is more attractive & inclusive so more folks can come play with what they have for a Sub>20 FPE air rifle, outfit and shoot it any way they wish within rules already on the books & just experiment to what parts of it they like or don't. Some will move to established classes & some may not ?

Either way WE GROW FT and have opened another door for increased participation much like Hunter class did now some 10+years ago.

Heck .. we may find years down the road that a "Unlimited Class" becomes the salvation of American Field target in the 10-55 yard game we all love.


My Level headed thoughts ...
Scott S

 

[JimInSoCal]

Wayne, I like your thought on matching Troyer option. The FT group near me sets up with a 3 target, 6 shot kneeling lane, and a 3 target, 6 shot offhand lane. I have a blown out knee and even with replacement, kneeling not a option. So any match I shoot there I am pretty much relegated to being 5-6 points down before the match even starts. In that circumstance I really have little interest in shooting matches there. there are some other clubs in a 3 to 4 hour radius. They might be friendlier to old shooters with bad knees. I will have to give them a try