Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?

[Scotchmo]

Getting your leg/s into it for added support.

Has been an issue in WFTF, but not so much here in NA.

If the straps are wrapped around the legs, it becomes a harness. That’s already illegal in WFTF:

“…Other than the arm, rifle slings may not be wrapped or attached to any other part of the body.”

 

[Scotchmo]

I like this conversation . IS a ground cloth/pad considered equipment IE; a sling ?

I almost always carry a thin mat to sit on. Never been questioned about it.

Though sometimes I just sit directly in the ground.

 

[tjmac]

Already illegal does not stop some from trying. However, no slings allowed, no issue. A shooting jacket can hide things fairly effectively.

 

[Scotchmo]

Already illegal does not stop some from trying. However, no slings allowed, no issue. A shooting jacket can hide things fairly effectively.

Then maybe we should get rid of the shooting jacket. So, no longer easy to conceal illegal straps, supports, or illegal foot positions.

Seriously though, we make the rules and hope that people comply. We can warn people who we see breaking (knowingly or unknowingly) the rules. You can't stop those that knowingly and purposefully conceal their cheating. The more rules we make, the more opportunities for someone to cheat/break those rules.

 

[tjmac]

Which one is a rule subject to abuse?

No slings
or
Particular slings can be used the following way. ........

I hear what you say about cheating and cheaters and fully agree. I just like to cut down the opportunities.

In passing you also mentioned something that I do not think is done as it should be. Mentioning to someone if they are breaking a rule is something we are responsible to do if we are good squad mates and interested in a fair competition. Too often this is done as a complaint after a match is all done. If we all consider ourselves a marshall for those in our squad and take that job seriously, a lot of rule bending and hard feelings can be eliminated.

Good chat. Scott, I am looking forward to your suggested "Limited" class tomorrow in our match with 60 shots on sixty targets over 20 lanes. It is going to be a great time for sure. I will not be using a sling.

 

[Scotchmo]

Which one is a rule subject to abuse?

No slings
or
Particular slings can be used the following way. ........

I don’t think sling abuse is a problem in Open Division. The reason you might see abuse in WFTF is because of other WFTF restrictions that the shooters are trying to overcome with their slings. Are more restrictions piled on existing restrictions the answer?

Personally, I don’t care either way what they use, but I think that more restrictions might alienate more shooters. I’ve never seen more restrictions increase participation.

 

[tjmac]

I’ve never seen more restrictions increase participation.

I'll give you that one for sure. The class where we reduced restrictions has grown the most up here.

Tim

 

[dayjd]

Brushing quickly through this new class I can't see it helping the cause and motive we wanted in a unlimited / Freestyle Class and is a distraction to that endeavor but if you think it will grow FT then give it a try. I would do a quick survey of how many would try it before you get to Invested in it. JMHO
Bill Day

 

[beerthief]

I like this , a rifle under 20 FPE ,a tin of pellets , a ground mat, a 16 power scope (16 just because is the rule now) a sling that rule reads "can only touch one arm / two points on the rifle , ready _shoot. This leaves it open to anyone that wants to try it or "pro "shooters if they dare leave all their equipment aside .

 

[Motorhead]

I like this , a rifle under 20 FPE ,a tin of pellets , a ground mat, a 16 power scope (16 just because is the rule now) a sling that rule reads "can only touch one arm / two points on the rifle , ready _shoot. This leaves it open to anyone that wants to try it or "pro "shooters if they dare leave all their equipment aside .

"pro" shooters Per-Say is not where growth is at & honestly the reason for these conversations. Those who wish to challenge them self can do so now in a myriad of ways. If about how tough it can be & how an individual triumphs in spite is very much a personal journey.

 

[beerthief]

"pro" shooters Per-Say is not where growth is at & honestly the reason for these conversations. Those who wish to challenge them self can do so now in a myriad of ways. If about how tough it can be & how an individual triumphs in spite is very much a personal journey.

my suggestion is to make it accessible to more people which in turn will get a larger part of the population interested in this sport . my first exposure to FT was YT videos of UK shooters the only apparent difference to my HW97k was the scope wheels on most of the guns OK that is affordable i thought .

 

[qball]

I'll give you that one for sure. The class where we reduced restrictions has grown the most up here.

Tim

Here lies the difference between spirit of the law vs letters of the law. Pretty sure the consensus from everyone that the goal or spirit of the law is to increase participation then we should look at the letter of the law or the “restrictions” in the eyes of how do we increase participation. History proves that more restrictions will not increase participation while the opposite is true.

IMHO those who wishes to “keep others down” are usually the ones want more restrictions and those who are truly competitive/skilled are the ones looking to “self restrict” to make things more interesting and challenging. Mr Scott H is a prime example of the later. There is only one possible/logical explanation to the possibility of someone cleaning the course with ease, KZ is way too big!!! If you can clean the course then drop power to 12 FPE or even lower and/or shoot piston!

All the internal bickering and confusing rules/restriction will only serve to drive away new people, KISS should be amply applied. This my point of view as a newbie(6 months), I found the rules confusing and frankly didn’t make a whole lot of sense and decided to just stick with WFTF rules.

 

[thomasair]

If the proposed new class allowing anything would be specifically for novices, it might help growth. The more likely scenario is that it will be populated mostly by experienced shooters looking to add points by way of increasing shooting aids. Once the sandbaggers take hold of the class…it will no longer be inviting for new shooters.

 

[Motorhead]

If the proposed new class allowing anything would be specifically for novices, it might help growth. The more likely scenario is that it will be populated mostly by experienced shooters looking to add points by way of increasing shooting aids. Once the sandbaggers take hold of the class…it will no longer be inviting for new shooters.

Mike ...
So what your saying in a sense is ... That folks who are the more experienced Cherish & prefer tight rope walking with there shoe laces tied together, and using a balance pole while doing so is a cheat ???

Sandbaggers .. REALLY ? Your distaste for "Hunter" class & it's shooters is more and more becoming apparent.
If others are having a good time with all there class afforded gear ... Why the hell would you care ?

Or is it the guns used likely won't need to be top shelf rigs if the class grew as Hunter Class Has. Smaller class participation in WFTF & Open etc certainly could curtail sales of high end specialty guns for some manufactures.

Valid questions ...

 

[SteveV]

I hear you, but how do you stop sandbagging? And btw, do you consider one of your guns topped by a March scope sandbagging?

 

[thomasair]

They are not valid questions at all.

Continually claiming a new unlimited class is needed to attract new shooters is subterfuge for increasing shooting aids for experienced shooters. If it’s really about making a place for new shooters…than only allow new shooters to participate in it.

I have no distaste for Hunter shooters. I actually like most of them. Probably an equal percentage compared to the people I like in the other AAFTA classes.

Steve…sandbagging means that you disguise your ability to win lower level classes. I’m not sure how a top shelf gun with a top shelf scope is sandbagging. If you are asking me if my guns should not be allowed in a beginner class…then the answer is yes.

You can easily make a beginning class with unlimited aids and a price cap. You can also require shooters to move up from the beginner class once a certain proficiency is attained. This is common in all sorts of sports.

 

[SteveV]

"Lower" level classes? But using top shelf is not sandbagging? I guess we really are playing a different game.

 

[thomasair]

I’m not sure what you are saying.

Are you disagreeing with the definition of sandbagging?

 

[thomasair]

Here is the Webster definition

: to hide the truth about oneself so as to gain an advantage over another

 

[SteveV]

For the record, I don't think Scott or Bill are sandbagging, and as I asked earlier, how can you blame anyone in any class for wanting the best gear they can afford? And to be honest, I bristle at anything that even smells remotely elitist, so not cool with the term "lower" to describe a FT class. So WFTF must be "upper"? I shot WFTF Piston for years, so shooting hunter now with a Crosman 1720 makes me a sandbagger? I'll be damned -

I no longer travel to matches, so I don't have much of a stake in any of this discussion, and don't mean to go all drama with the terminology, but do find it interesting, Freud and all -