Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?

[thomasair]

Steve, you seem to be reading things wrong.

A lower level class would be one which is supposedly for the purposes of attracting new shooters….such as the new unlimited as it’s being sold by Scott. Experienced shooters have no business in a beginner class. If experienced shooters participate in a beginners class…they are sandbagging.

Thus far, none of your examples have anything to do with sandbagging or anything I’ve actually said in context.

Nothing will ruin a new shooters interest more than getting trounced. The continual cry that unlimited will be a class that’s going to attract new shooters is BS. I don’t like BS. I don’t like people that talk BS and then get offended if I don’t go along with it. It’s insulting.

If the new class is supposed to attract new shooters….then keep the experienced shooters out of it.

 

[Airgunoregon]

They are not valid questions at all.

Continually claiming a new unlimited class is needed to attract new shooters is subterfuge for increasing shooting aids for experienced shooters. If it’s really about making a place for new shooters…than only allow new shooters to participate in it.

I have no distaste for Hunter shooters. I actually like most of them. Probably an equal percentage compared to the people I like in the other AAFTA classes.

Steve…sandbagging means that you disguise your ability to win lower level classes. I’m not sure how a top shelf gun with a top shelf scope is sandbagging. If you are asking me if my guns should not be allowed in a beginner class…then the answer is yes.

You can easily make a beginning class with unlimited aids and a price cap. You can also require shooters to move up from the beginner class once a certain proficiency is attained. This is common in all sorts of sports.

I led off this discussion with the idea we were trying to keep the older folks in the AAFTA group... not that Unlimited would draw in new shooters...

Not sure where this is going..

Should a class called "Unlimited" or maybe "Freestyle" be an official AAFTA class for the Grand Prix series?

Clubs can already allow Unlimited at local and GP matches, the scores just don't count in the Grand Prix calculations.

The proposed class would allow all the items and shooting positions allowed now in ALL the AAFTA classes.

Wayne

 

[SteveV]

Steve, you seem to be reading things wrong.

A lower level class would be one which is supposedly for the purposes of attracting new shooters….such as the new unlimited as it’s being sold by Scott. Experienced shooters have no business in a beginner class. If experienced shooters participate in a beginners class…they are sandbagging.

Thus far, none of your examples have anything to do with sandbagging or anything I’ve actually said in context.

Nothing will ruin a new shooters interest more than getting trounced. The continual cry that unlimited will be a class that’s going to attract new shooters is BS. I don’t like BS. I don’t like people that talk BS and then get offended if I don’t go along with it. It’s insulting.

If the new class is supposed to attract new shooters….then keep the experienced shooters out of it.

I'm not reading a damn thing wrong, but do carry on, you should run for office.

 

[thomasair]

If nothing else….this forum is an endless fountain of logical fallacy.

 

[SteveV]

I would say your sense of logic was subjective.

 

[qball]

I hear you, but how do you stop sandbagging? And btw, do you consider one of your guns topped by a March scope sandbagging?

Sandbaggers are those who compete with those who they know they can beat regardless of skills and/or gun setup. Sandbaggers will be sandbaggers and everyone knows who they are and not pay attention to them. If they get a kick of beating newbies with setup 10x the price then to each their own. Truly skilled folks won’t care and newbies will be none the wiser so basically why cater the future of the sport based on a few sandbaggers? Make the sport newbie friendly is the only viable option and everything else is secondary! Without new folks this sport will literally die out in a few short years…..yes, I do mean literally.

A Thomas with a March high master that cost close to 10K is nice for those who can afford it. I don’t see people walk up to a person driving a Ferrari and call them Sandbaggers.

 

[Motorhead]

If the new class is supposed to attract new shooters….then keep the experienced shooters out of it.

Again your only reading what supports your rebuttals.

New shooters, Old shooters .. ANY shooters who wish to use what ever gear they can Mixing & Matching gear & technique for what ever reason they may justify for there own enjoyment of the FT game !! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH THAT

So again a smoke show on it being about the Winning only and Not have any class afforded more gear options able to possibly set a high match score other than traditional FT classes.
Hell the AAFTA abolished that practice in 2016 IIRC. Just to stop this perceived fictional Best shooter of a match distraction and hurt ego's come matches end.

That ship sailed years ago making your Sandbaggers of the last 10+ years responsible for the largest growth the AAFTA has ever seen. Yet some still wish to hang onto the Good O'l Boys Club mentality. Hanging on is fine, that why the classes of WFTF will always be there ... world wide.

The FT games we play here in the states has spoken LOUDLY with "Hunter" now being the largest group shooting now days .. Yet the few simply can't or won't accept growth of adding other classes within American Field Target that perhaps may raise the bar even further or just how well and how far Modern Air Guns & those who shoot them have come. Think about it ?

An Unlimited class ....
Keep the experienced shooters out of it .... REALLY ?

 

[thomasair]

Wayne….If it’s not about the new shooters, then where does the growth come from?

Shooters simply changing classes won’t produce any growth.

If it’s about keeping the old shooters in the game longer, it seems like you could easily put an exact number to the old shooters that are going to leave the game if they can’t have more shooting aids. I mean, there really aren’t that many shooters in total, so a hard count of those about to age out should be easy. If that number is really big, then surely AAFTA couldn’t ignore the impending extinction and would surely adopt the new class.

I think the reason why AAFTA never approves the Unlimited class is because the arguments for the class are incredibly weak.

 

[beerthief]

Why don't the "old guy's " just do what they can and forget the GP scores ? If a person is ageing out like you say why form something New ? just let us shoot with whatever we need to use , enjoy the fellowship and the sport . i'm a nubie at 77 i just want to be part of it all and thats enough.
Most of the people i have talked to at FT and i quote " I know I'm not going to place anywhere I'm just glad I'm here ."

 

[SteveV]

Sandbaggers are those who compete with those who they know they can beat regardless of skills and/or gun setup. Sandbaggers will be sandbaggers and everyone knows who they are and not pay attention to them. If they get a kick of beating newbies with setup 10x the price then to each their own. Truly skilled folks won’t care and newbies will be none the wiser so basically why cater the future of the sport based on a few sandbaggers? Make the sport newbie friendly is the only viable option and everything else is secondary! Without new folks this sport will literally die out in a few short years…..yes, I do mean literally.

A Thomas with a March high master that cost close to 10K is nice for those who can afford it. I don’t see people walk up to a person driving a Ferrari and call them Sandbaggers.

Sandbaggers are those who compete with those who they know they can beat regardless of skills and/or gun setup. Sandbaggers will be sandbaggers and everyone knows who they are and not pay attention to them. If they get a kick of beating newbies with setup 10x the price then to each their own. Truly skilled folks won’t care and newbies will be none the wiser so basically why cater the future of the sport based on a few sandbaggers? Make the sport newbie friendly is the only viable option and everything else is secondary! Without new folks this sport will literally die out in a few short years…..yes, I do mean literally.

A Thomas with a March high master that cost close to 10K is nice for those who can afford it. I don’t see people walk up to a person driving a Ferrari and call them Sandbaggers.

I suppose you answered your own non question?

The "sandbagger" thing is a red herring anyway - Wayne is on point, a class to attract newbs and keep older folks in the game is a great idea, I'm all for it, as long as it doesn't allow any shooting aid not already legal. What could it hurt?

 

[thomasair]

Why don't the "old guy's " just do what they can and forget the GP scores ? If a person is ageing out like you say why form something New ? just let us shoot with whatever we need to use , enjoy the fellowship and the sport . i'm a nubie at 77 i just want to be part of it all and thats enough.
Most of the people i have talked to at FT and i quote " I know I'm not going to place anywhere I'm just glad I'm here ."

Most that already shoot unlimited do exactly as you suggested. They don’t care about GP points or anything else. They shoot because they enjoy it.

 

[qball]

I suppose you answered your own non question?

The "sandbagger" thing is a red herring anyway - Wayne is on point, a class to attract newbs and keep older folks in the game is a great idea, I'm all for it, as long as it doesn't allow any shooting aid not already legal. What could it hurt?

That’s exactly the point I am trying to make! Forget the “Sandbaggers”, but Sandbaggers are people too!

 

[qball]

Most that already shoot unlimited do exactly as you suggested. They don’t care about GP points or anything else. They shoot because they enjoy it.

What you stated is very true and I completely agree with your point. But my observation is that people don't want to be viewed as in the easier class by being in the unlimited class which has little no no participation. Combine it into HFT class everyone shoot under same set of rules plus a chance to practice for the more competitive matches down the road. If anyone complains that real matches aren't difficult enough then just shrink the KZs. Forget the 2 inch KZs all together even for 55 yards and put a 3/8 inch DZ at 20 yards, I don't care how much scope advantage you got it still won't be a giveme. Use bigger KZs at local club matches so everyone can just enjoy a good time and newbies can learn and build confidence.

 

[thomasair]

Qball….My point is that it’s unlikely to grow the sport. If Hunter is transformed to unlimited, it will become the most expensive class overnight. That is exactly the opposite of its original intent.

 

[qball]

Qball….My point is that it’s unlikely to grow the sport. If Hunter is transformed to unlimited, it will become the most expensive class overnight. That is exactly the opposite of its original intent.

I can see your point but guess we can agree to disagree. It will likely to have both ends of cost spectrum because most budget 24x scope can range pretty ok as supposed to very few budget scopes can range well at 16x from my personal experience. If we open up the 16x limit then it will be more affordable and easier to get into IMHO. How expensive any hobby will get all depends on the individual, leave it to people to overspend with all the “justification”.

 

[thomasair]

What about the shooting coat, the adjustable knee riser, the specialty butt plate, thigh rest, etc?

Those also items that will come along.

Now it’s not nearly as cheap to get into as it was.

 

[SteveV]

Then Hunter will be the "on the cheap" class?

 

[SteveV]

Steve, you seem to be reading things wrong.

A lower level class would be one which is supposedly for the purposes of attracting new shooters….such as the new unlimited as it’s being sold by Scott. Experienced shooters have no business in a beginner class. If experienced shooters participate in a beginners class…they are sandbagging.

Thus far, none of your examples have anything to do with sandbagging or anything I’ve actually said in context.

Nothing will ruin a new shooters interest more than getting trounced. The continual cry that unlimited will be a class that’s going to attract new shooters is BS. I don’t like BS. I don’t like people that talk BS and then get offended if I don’t go along with it. It’s insulting.

If the new class is supposed to attract new shooters….then keep the experienced shooters out of it.

New competitors in any sport get trounced on a regular basis, if growing the sport relied on the elimination of that, the sport would be doomed, and it's NOT doomed.

EDIT: I'm not talking BS, so I'm sure you're not directing that at me, Wayne, or anyone else that would happen to have a different opinion than yours.

EDIT #2: I'M DONE, GONNA GO PRACTICE FOR NEXT WEEKS TN. STATE MATCH - maybe I'll place in the lower class?

 

[dayjd]

Why would we want to make Hunter class unlimited it is the strongest class of AFFTA. We would just like to stick around for a few more years. Maybe create AFFTA heaven where we could shoot like the rest of AFFTA classes have for many years but with our buckets and pods. " After all we would only be shooting against our own class." In 2016 we started a trial year and the first 2 years were a sucess no matter what anyone say's about it. The point is after being turned down for no good reason some still continue to shoot Unlimited where and when they can. Many of us old timers want to stay in the game and have laid out thoudands of dollars over the years making GP's and Nationals work and it isn't because we always end up in the winner's circle. I think it is about time that the BOG do something for us. Once we are gone it will be hard to replace us. I say this not only for myself but for my brethren that I have shot with over the years. I have stated my goal for the next couple years and after this year my plans will not change whether we get an unlimited class or not. Should I fail in my goal I will either retire from the game or give a public apology here on Airgun Nation. A man is only as good as his word. (My favorite motto) Should I fulfill my goal and still healthy enough I hope to be joining the successful Unlimited class in 2025 FT season. Give Peace a Chance and secure your FT future!
Bill Day

 

[Airgunoregon]

Mike,

To me a "Sandbagger" is one who pretends to be bad at something...like shooting pool, to lure someone into betting on a game that they know they can easily win.
I don't see any sandbaggers in the field target game.

But I do see lots of older shooters taking new shooters... however old or young they are ... under their wings, and helping them as much as possible to learn and have fun playing the game.

That's the way we grow it... in my humble opinion.

And that's not an easy or productive way to grow the sport... but those who do join under that format, usually stay in the game a lot longer.

Again, I say, I think or Believe... that the BOG of AAFTA understands that we Usually... can't handle all the shooters in the game now at a National Championships. I think they would be happy to just replace the ones who drop out and keep the membership about the same as it is..

AAFTA cannot grow very much without a whole lot of growing pains... that as far as I know, there is no plan to deal with growth issues.

Venues... Venues... Venues is the issue. and the clubs to do all the work for free to host a GP or National Championships...

SO, please, this is NOT about growing the sport.. It's about making it work for the shooters we have now... and at least half, like I said in the beginning of this thread... are pretty old and getting older.

Wayne