Wayne….Just how many old shooters have we lost in the last season that could have been saved by an unlimited class?
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Time for Unlimited Class in AAFTA?
- Thread starter Airgunoregon
- Start date
Good question Mike,
I don't know..
All the clubs would have to chime in with those facts.
The other question would be "How many might we loose in the near future"?
Again all clubs would have to do a survey I guess.
Wayne
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Keith…I can’t even come up with anyone I’ve known since I started shooting FT in 2015 that has left FT due to age and the inability to play anymore.
A friend of ours (Alan) has been shooting FT in the US and around the world for about 30 years. I asked him how many guys he’s personally known that have aged out of the sport since he’s been involved. His reply was, “An awful lot”. I then asked how many he thought would have stayed in the sport a while longer if they were allowed unlimited class shooting aids in an AAFTA approved class. After a quick laugh… his answer was, “Not many”. A further request to quantify the vague answer with a number resulted in a staggering figure of, “maybe 1 or 2…. but probably none.”
A friend of ours (Alan) has been shooting FT in the US and around the world for about 30 years. I asked him how many guys he’s personally known that have aged out of the sport since he’s been involved. His reply was, “An awful lot”. I then asked how many he thought would have stayed in the sport a while longer if they were allowed unlimited class shooting aids in an AAFTA approved class. After a quick laugh… his answer was, “Not many”. A further request to quantify the vague answer with a number resulted in a staggering figure of, “maybe 1 or 2…. but probably none.”
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I personally think the way to save / grow FT is to have more local events. actually practice lanes/ times ,it doesn't have to be a full 15 or 20 lanes i look at upcoming shoots and they are all 9 to 15 hours away , i am retired and have the time /cash to go but here we are talking how to keep a "lane " open for the old guys which this would accomplish ." If you dont move you lose it ." having a local place keeps you in the game longer .
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You’re not wrong about having places to go shoot.
There is a big misconception in your post, though. FT isn’t dying and it’s not in dire need of saving. Those are just made up doomsday scenarios by a very vocal minority so they have a just cause for their wants.
My friend and those he knows that have been doing this forever have a name for the process. They call it the 5 year cycle.
FT isn’t going anywhere….and it’s well run by a very good group of Board Members.
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Yup.
It's not about being able to WIN as a newbie. But it is about having some level of fun to want to come back. It's gotta be a crap job for an MD/course designer to make something both challenging to the experienced, yet still compelling enough to bring new shooters into the game wanting to come back.
Keeping older shooters in game is a good, and reasonable goal. But in 5-10 years, if those spots haven't been backfilled, we'll be in the same spot again.
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ok this sounds better , thanks . i have an offer to come shoot ,still 2 hours away but 6 lanes in the back yard and TN state GP? next weekend , sad last event at Roz's Hollow .
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Go to the TN state match and have fun. Find Alan Otsuka and engage him in conversation. He will be there. You’ll learn a lot about FT and it’s history from him. While you are there….ask Roz if he would stick around a few more seasons if AAFTA would recognize unlimited class.
Those are a great bunch of guys and you will have a blast shooting and hanging out with them.
Those are a great bunch of guys and you will have a blast shooting and hanging out with them.
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I'll be there....looking forward to shooting somewhere new and somewhere that has a lot of FT history. I won't bring up rules or a unlimited class though.
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The GOB has always been one of my favorite places to shoot. Wish I could make it but the last time I drove down there it seems it took me 18 hours and with headed to PR the following Friday it is a little bit more that I want to do right now. Keith please give Ros Sumpner and Cliff Smith, Steve Vines, and Bob my best wishes and tell them I am sorry I couldn't make it. It really is a sad day when the Good Old Boys close down.
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Mike, you sure are working hard to prevent the unlimited class from happening. After not seeing you around the FT circuit the last 3 years I'm surpised you even care but it seems you certainly have a problem with it.
Bill Day
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Bill….I’ve been shooting BR for the last 2 seasons. I can’t do both well in the same season so I focus on one at a time. I’ll be back.
Most AAFTA shooters don’t want to see an official.unlimited class created.
Most AAFTA shooters don’t want to see an official.unlimited class created.
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So you are their official spokesman? The survey we did in 2015 had a significant majority of the clubs wanting the trial year for the unlimited. This actual happened and some clubs are still offering these classes but we will never really see how it will spawn until it is an approved AFFTA class. Leo Duran told me flat out at the end of the Arizona National 2017 we would have an official Unlimited / Freestyle class in 2018. Leo ended up resigning and nothing was done.
Kinda mysterious too me who really killed it. I really wonder why you say most AFFTA shooters are against it. As you said yourself Mike, "Classes only compete against each other" in your former comments about the hunter class wanting bigger scopes. From what I have seen in this Topic and the first Topic there have been a lot more for unlimited then against it. If anyone cares to research both Unlimted Class Topics I would bet the favorable comments far out weigh the negative. I can recall maybe 4 to 6 individuals actually speaking out against Unlimited, but many more than that were for the class. Now maybe I'm a little bias but still believe in what I am conveying. I guess we probably will always disagree on this subject and that's all right too.
Bill Day
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Bill….adding an Unlimited class would simply make one more PCP class that would draw most of its shooters from Hunter. It will just take the shooters we have now and divide them up into more smaller groups.
It’s a 100% guarantee.
Can you explain how AAFTA and the shooters would benefit from dividing up the sport further?
It’s a 100% guarantee.
Can you explain how AAFTA and the shooters would benefit from dividing up the sport further?
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Initially that would be true ... then it Would Not as some needed growth of our ranks happens.
It is NOT a 100% guarantee either way.
Nothing ventured Nothing gained ... ever heard that term
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Scott, Wayne doesn’t agree with you about proposed growth. He said in bold letters that it’s not what this is about.
Wayne’s platform is that the unlimited class will keep old shooters in the game….although that is unlikely and there are no known examples of this being true.
Bill is also promoting the class like Wayne.
Your platform seems to be “let’s just see”.
If unlimited class comes to fruition in an AAFTA approved way, which class will you be competing in?
I’m certain Bill will make the switch, and pretty sure Wayne will too. Where will you be?
Wayne’s platform is that the unlimited class will keep old shooters in the game….although that is unlikely and there are no known examples of this being true.
Bill is also promoting the class like Wayne.
Your platform seems to be “let’s just see”.
If unlimited class comes to fruition in an AAFTA approved way, which class will you be competing in?
I’m certain Bill will make the switch, and pretty sure Wayne will too. Where will you be?
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Based on some previous comments referring to people not having enough experience for their opinions to be relevant.....I did a quick tally and estimate that I've competed in about 50 "regular" field target matches at 6 different locations and about 15 extreme ft matches at 2 different locations (my experience is certainly not "extensive" or "vast"). I don't know if that crosses the arbitrary line of whether or not I get to have an opinion, but if not, then I guess disregard the following......
I agree with @thomasair, an official Unlimited class will divide up a small class of competitors into even smaller classes. As for how the shooters would benefit? Well, more people would get their participation award for beating the only other guy in their class!
As for this "competing against myself" or "you against the course"....... that's BS. FT matches are COMPETITIONS. You are there to compete. I played a lot of organized sports as a kid, and still occasionally play organized basketball. Never once have I played a game of baseball or softball to compete against the bases and the outfield grass. Nor have I ever squared up against a basketball goal to see if it, or myself, could do better that day. Yeah yeah it sounds all noble and chivalrous to say stuff like that, but if all the scores didn't matter and "I'm only here to see if I can do better than I did last time", then I'd just shoot in my backyard. There's just no point to go and compete if we're not going to look at how the rest of the shooters did on the same course, on the same day. The competitors make the competition. What's nice about field target competition though, is that there's none of the ugly rivalries we sometimes see in sports. We're all friends. If somebody I'm shooting against does well, I'm the first to congratulate them. So, the competition part of field target is not ugly and nasty, but it's there.
Furthermore, every match I've been at recognized the overall high score, even if not officially. Highest score seems to be looked at as the shooter who did the best that day and not just by myself. High overall score usually seems to get the most congratulations from the rest of the shooters, both at the matches and in the comments for any match reports that end up shared publicly. I try to make a point of going to tell high score that they shot well, but I don't go congratulate all the winners of: WFTF Piston, WFTF PCP, Hunter Piston, Hunter PCP, Open Piston, Open PCP, Unlimited (yes we have that in AZ).
Just guessing, I'd estimate the average # of shooters at monthly FT matches across the country is something like 15 people. Seems absurd to me, to have all these classes for only 15ish shooters. And we're wanting to add another official class!?!?!
I'm still on board with Scotchmo's recommendation of having one class. Shoot it how you want, but keep it under 20fpe. Everybody gets what they want (except for the guys who like their participation awards). Highest scores get recognized as being the shooter who shot the best on that course that day. I shoot Open and have no issue with competing against any combination of currently allowed gear. Regardless of the wording, the big push seems to be towards allowing Hunter class greater magnification.....I say, let em have it! And frankly, if some cry-babies leave because they lose whatever perceived advantage the rules gave them over the rest of the shooters......so be it.
Finally, people will eventually age out, regardless of being able to shoot in Unlimited. I base that on two guys that no longer come to our matches but were regulars, shooting in the unsanctioned Unlimited class before bowing out. Both of them cited bad backs as what eventually lead to their withdrawal, but I suspect at least one of them is the same guy Steve123 mentioned threw in the towel because of certain individuals negative attitude towards the Unlimited class. And both of those guys are missed. One of them took me under his wing at my first ever match and was a warm and friendly face for my next couple years. The other was just hilarious. Always joking and laughing and make the event enjoyable. I miss seeing them both and think of them often.
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Frank Link, I like a man that isn't afraid to challenge the Status Que if they believe in what they want out af a game that could benefit all. As you know most likely the hunter class has taken over as the largest class in AAFTA. Hunter class now is likely the last class that a senior citizen will play in. Frankly, (No pun intended) I have been in the Hunter class from it trial year. I have seen a number of shooters leave because of health reasons or they are just not competitive any longer. I remember the Airgun club in Arizona that Mark Kauffman runs had a very strong Unlimited / Free style class back during the trial years, This club was likely the most successful Unlimited Class in all of AFFTA in their turnouts. I try to read all the match reports posted on the old yellow and now the Airgun Warriors. I may be wrong but it seems that class in Arizona a slipped somewhat. If I'm wrong then I apologize. There are other clubs that started out well also but when the two year trail ended and nothing came about as to an official class the shooters that shot it seemed to slowly dissapear.
Anyway, the hunter class has 2 to 3 times the participation that the Open has. In most cases they outnumber the WFTF by a margin too. My thoughts are the unlimited class would provide an avenue for dedicated FT shooters to possibly stay in the game longer. If it adopted a few that wanted just to try something else it wouldn't hurt the Hunter class that significantly. Well Frank, keep the faith and maybe we'll run into each other sometime or another. I don't know who go are but you know my name. Please speakup if we ever make it to the same match.
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