Time to combine Open and Hunter?

dgeesaman · Wednesday at 8:22 PM

AirNGasman said:
And I don't call Hunters using $3000 scopes that out-rangefind Leapers by a mile beginner friendly.

.

I don’t think that’s a reasonable comparison.

Ranging capability of a scope comes from optical design more than the $$. There are affordable scopes that range find similarly at 16x as $3000 scopes at 16x.

Some scopes have a large depth of field and thus range find poorly. That comes from the internal optical design not cost or glass quality. If we want to help grow HFT then we can help new shooters choose affordable 16x scopes that rangefind well. Otherwise the myth that a high $$ scope is required to compete at 16x will become assumed fact and erode the class.

dgeesaman · 2024-09-19T09:58:08-0500

Random idea for field target clubs to get new shooters to try it out: have a loaner 16x scope prepared with a parallax wheel and give the shooter a reticle sketch on a notecard so they can mount the scope, zero it, and do a hasty dope card using the sight in targets. Also have a loaner bucket and sticks. The new person just has to bring a sub 20 fpe gun.

I’m sure a lot of clubs could collect this just by asking members for unused stuff they have laying around.

AirNGasman · 2024-09-19T10:28:13-0500

AirNGasman said:
And I don't call Hunters using $3000 scopes that out-rangefind Leapers by a mile beginner friendly.

.

"I don’t think that’s a reasonable comparison." You're right, it's not. I was exaggerating.

I doubt the $3000 scopes out-rangefind Leapers by much more than 5 yards.

.

steve123 · 2024-09-19T10:33:53-0500

cavedweller said:
Attitude-new people should expect to suck and see the potential to improve. While natural to compare ourselves against others, the truth is, we should be striving to compete against ourselves via bettering our own game… mental, physical and as practical or possible our desired equipment.

Of course!

Was there ever any sport or competition were someone didn't start at a "beginner level" having never done it before?!

Either someone has a desire in their heart, lets say a spark of joy, that inspires them to continue in a sport and come back again "Or Not". Or Not's happen and life goes on.

Jezter6 · 2024-09-19T10:46:19-0500

cavedweller said:
Attitude-new people should expect to suck and see the potential to improve. While natural to compare ourselves against others, the truth is, we should be striving to compete against ourselves via bettering our own game… mental, physical and as practical or possible our desired equipment.

what is the acceptable level of 'suck' one can reasonably take while thinking it's worth continuing?

as far as I know, this game started with the kind of tech AirNGasMan posted....the kind of basic equipment that anyone could buy and wasn't particularly special, with big ol' 1.5"/40mm KZ sizes because 4x scopes and break barrels made for some tough shooting.

we dont have 3/8" KZ because people are getting too good with break barrels with fixed low-mag scopes....it's because of the arms race. the arms race that has people snickering about Marauder shooters behind their back. Not a $98 walmart gamo (which I have shot FT with my first time)...an $800 reasonably capable gun...but one that will have trouble with shots at targets under 1/2"

no, noobs aren't expected to compete for top spots the first season or two or even three. but the pervasive attitude it seems that anyone who doesn't want to compete at the top level shouldn't even bother. in fact, it's suggested that not only walking in with a marauder and $200 scope is laughable, that they should have a harder time ranging as some sort of hazing ritual until you buy your way into equipment.

when do we allow 120x optical zoom with automated ranging and motorized turret adjustment? when those guys are out there 55/60 a course at 1/2 kz where will we go as a sport? are they going to start laughing at noobs with their redwolfs and 60x scopes?

PowderBurnt · 2024-09-19T11:12:21-0500

Why are mommy and daddy fighting?

Frank in Fairfield · 2024-09-19T11:49:00-0500

I was just watching the HFT World’s Championship on YouTube.
One shooter was using a red dot on his TX200..

Solo1 · 2024-09-19T12:18:24-0500

dgeesaman said:
Random idea for field target clubs to get new shooters to try it out: have a loaner 16x scope prepared with a parallax wheel and give the shooter a reticle sketch on a notecard so they can mount the scope, zero it, and do a hasty dope card using the sight in targets. Also have a loaner bucket and sticks. The new person just has to bring a sub 20 fpe gun.

I’m sure a lot of clubs could collect this just by asking members for unused stuff they have laying around.

A very easy way to do this would be to plug the new guys data in strelock and take a pic of the scope view to send to the new guy.

Franklink · 2024-09-19T13:00:13-0500

We're back to the beginner discussion?

I called newbies unicorns earlier but zebras is probably better, cuz they do exist. Common phrase in my line is work is "horses, not zebras." The gist of which is that let's investigate/take care of the horses (making them our priority) before we start talking zebras.

So, the regulars at ft matches are the horses (or maybe asses? I kid I kid.) And the rare/occasional newcomers are the zebras. Most matches don't even have someone shooting an ft course for their first time. I can't logic my way out of that wet paper sack where we're structuring an entire course and/or the rules that govern field target specifically for rare zebras.

Versus

Structure matches and rules for the regulars not the rare newcomer.

thomasair · 2024-09-19T13:00:18-0500

Round kil zones require precise ranging. The better you range the target the more room you have for wind error. This is because a round hole gets narrower as you move up and down from the center which is what happens when you range incorrectly.

Making a 1.5" round kill zone into a 1.5 x 1.5 square would allow everyone to misrange by 5 yards up or down and still have the same room for wind error that you would if you ranged it perfectly.

That would make high dollar scopes no more effective than low cost options in terms of ranging but still require the ranging element of the game to be semi important.

You could probably just turn the game into eyeball range only.

Mike

Franklink · 2024-09-19T13:25:04-0500

Jezter6 said:
as far as I know, this game started with the kind of tech AirNGasMan posted....the kind of basic equipment that anyone could buy and wasn't particularly special, with big ol' 1.5"/40mm KZ sizes because 4x scopes and break barrels made for some tough shooting.

NASCARs's roots were moonshine running rigs.

Then...

Now...

beerthief · 2024-09-19T13:38:33-0500

I've finished in the top third of Hunter division shooting a 1963 Sheridan multi-pump topped with a similar-vintage, 7/8"-tube 2-7X scope...

And I didn't even use a scope-level, oversize side-wheel, shooting jacket, shooting glove, shooting boots, or girdle!

SEE what can be done !, I have a rig just like this and do very well shooting bench rest, tomorrow i will give FT targets a try ,should be fun .

Jezter6 · 2024-09-19T13:40:05-0500

Franklink said:
NASCARs's roots were moonshine running rigs.

Then...
View attachment 497497

Now...
View attachment 497498

How many drivers do you think there would be if there were no local auto racing areas you could get into with a barely tuned up road car and work your way through? FT doesnt have that.

And there's plenty of reasons why you don't pull up to a local track in a $10m NASCAR rig.

But since you invested your nascar, guess all the local club guys should change everything up so you can have more fun?

PowderBurnt · 2024-09-19T13:40:18-0500

beerthief said:
I've finished in the top third of Hunter division shooting a 1963 Sheridan multi-pump topped with a similar-vintage, 7/8"-tube 2-7X scope...

And I didn't even use a scope-level, oversize side-wheel, shooting jacket, shooting glove, shooting boots, or girdle!

SEE what can be done !, I have a rig just like this and do very well shooting bench rest, tomorrow i will give FT targets a try ,should be fun .

I should borrow my cousin's Sheridan. I bought him a rebuild kit for it. That thing could drive nails.

Franklink · 2024-09-19T14:18:00-0500

Jezter6 said:
How many drivers do you think there would be if there were no local auto racing areas you could get into with a barely tuned up road car and work your way through? FT doesnt have that.

And there's plenty of reasons why you don't pull up to a local track in a $10m NASCAR rig.

But since you invested your nascar, guess all the local club guys should change everything up so you can have more fun?

See post #169

At the 3 clubs where I attend monthly matches, nearly everyone has already "invested" in their FT gear.

Franklink · 2024-09-19T14:22:46-0500

I'm not against newcomers. In fact I/we welcome them with open arms. We stick a gun in their hands, ask to be squadded with them during the match, give helpful tips, etc. I personally do everything in my power to make their first match an enjoyable experience. BUT, the match (and in this discussion, the rules) should not be watered down for the sometimes 1 new guy (sometimes zero new guys) when there are 15-25 other guys there that have practiced and put time into themselves and their gear and are expecting a fun challenge on match day.

steve123 · 2024-09-19T20:32:29-0500

Jezter6 said:
How many drivers do you think there would be if there were no local auto racing areas you could get into with a barely tuned up road car and work your way through? FT doesnt have that.

And there's plenty of reasons why you don't pull up to a local track in a $10m NASCAR rig.

But since you invested your nascar, guess all the local club guys should change everything up so you can have more fun?

It's already been mentioned in this thread about people using inexpensive rifles and scopes either winning or placing high in FT matches. But they put the work in to produce a higher score.

Typically with lower quality guns the chance of getting a good barrel along with a good tune are less than that of higher quality guns.
Not only that but POI shifts are more common with lower quality guns.
Also it's been mentioned that picking the less expensive scopes that range better helps a lot so getting a scope that works poorly for FT is a big hindrance.

About a decade ago, in a effort to accommodate new shooters, our club did an experiment for a season by putting up three targets per lane vs the normal two. The closest and farthest targets were regular sizes per distance but the middle target had a larger KZ size. The new shooters were allowed to engage the close and middle target. Regular shooters weren't allowed to engage the middle target.
That worked for a while until new-ish shooter Ross sold his old gear and showed up at the state match with top of the line equipment and was high score on day one by a large margin. This was a big surprise to the MD's so they made adjustments, LOL! Also setting up a three per lane is more work to do.

Then a few years later our club allowed a Unlimited division as a experiment. My friend who is older and who has a bad back got high score at state in Unlimited that year which caused some murmuring. He used a crappy tripod unclamped to gun, a LRF, a old Daystate Huntsman and a cheap scope set on 9x using holdovers. It's a non AAFTA recognised division but even so it was a controversial moment.

Your point is noted but applying the fixes aren't easy to do.

You could always email AAFTA with suggestions.

AirNGasman · 2024-09-20T12:19:29-0500

After reading the latests contributions to this thread, I didn't recall its original subject (without checking). Ohhh... that's right!