Time to combine Open and Hunter?

[cavedweller]

First off, this isn't pitchforks. Nor is it demands to the BOG. Nor do I want it to become a BOG bash. Let's see if we can discuss this in a civil manner.

While nothing compared to many that have been doing it for multiple decades, I've been involved in ft since the 12x Hunter class days. Around the time the rules changed to 16x was the time I started shooting in Open class. I shot there a couple years, and about 2 years ago switched to mostly Hunter when the Open class participation got nearly non-existent at the monthly matches of the 3 clubs I attend. I prefer Open, feeling slightly more stable from the bumbag/harness position, and the unlimited scope power, and the ability to dial the turrets. But I can also hold my own from the Hunter class position and rules.

The recent Pyramyd Air Cup is what prompted this post. Somebody shared some photos of the scoreboards on Instagram. If I'm reading it right, I'm counting 58 Hunter class shooters, and 5 Open class shooters. At an 11.6:1 participation ratio, I think we're at the point of bringing the combining of the two classes up for discussion.

So how do we all feel about a combined Open/Hunter class?
The way I envision this is that the 16x scope restriction for Hunter class is lifted, allowing Hunter class to use any scope they want, at any magnification level. While the no-harness, no-straps, etc rules are lifted to allow the typical Open class position to shoot with the Hunter class. For the "new" class, essentially: keep the no attached bipod rule, and keep the no tripod rule, and keep the no laser rangefinder rule. In other words, change the rules so that current Open and Hunter class positions and equipment are all one class.

Hunter class gets what they want with the removal of the scope restriction. And the few remaining Open class shooters can still shoot from their favored position and actually have a class in which to do so.

Hunter class guys....Would you be mad about this? Quit the game/sport?
Open class guys....Would you be mad about this? Quit the game/sport?
WFTF class guys.....Would you....nevermind. This doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever.

From my perspective, combining the two classes sure wouldn't alienate any newbies, since Hunter is no longer a new-comer class but rather the largest field contested. ie Hunter is not a new-comer class, whether it was ever meant to be at inception or not, it simply isn't now.

What say ye?

Am I missing some valid reason why we should keep the current situation and not consolidate Open and Hunter? I'm only seeing this as a win-win for both classes and field target as a whole, but I'm just one person.

See atendance tally from 10/20/24 nationals event

 

[cavedweller]

Whats the difference? Anyone could shoot hunter but everyone that wants higher mag or to dial or whatever with bucket and styx shoots open. Why create so many rules as to deter people shooting. I mean fine have rules when there’s $10000 on the line but i don’t know of any ft match that has a payout. I think its all about fun and bragging about beating your buddys

For me - it’s all about beating or besting myself, as in, continuously improving my overall percentages of KZ strikes while improving my overall skills. Then it’s the people! Good people! Helpful people!

 

[cavedweller]

How many people would come back to shoot again after not hitting anything?

Me…. I’d want to continually improve myself and learn how to make less mistakes. I’m a perfect example (and proof) that money will not buy accuracy - I’ve spent thousands trying. Forced lanes will always determine who the best and most practiced shooters are. Beginners should always understand that they are beginners and beginners should understand that their toughest opponent is themself.

 

[cavedweller]

Multiple people shoot perfect scores at our monthly matches. It's not the same guy all the time.

What happens when they shoot at National Events?

 

[cavedweller]

Welp, I finally got caught up on this thread. It took me a while because I had to keep checking the date on the post, since the original post and replies look very similar to something I suggested a few months ago. I've still got the pitch marks on my butt that haven't healed.

Officially, I would be in favor of combining open and hunter. I would also be in favor of keep the divisions separate and letting hunter class have full use of the scope. I would also be in favor of a "Base" class, where the gun and scope have to be less than $1,000 MSRP.

But we can also keep things the way they are. Classes, rules and equipment aren't keeping people from shooting field target. Field target is keeping people from shooting field target. It's slow, a little boring, and brings out the argumentative nature in old men. That's why it's hard to convince people under 40 to try it, or to keep coming back. The best way to get younger people to shoot field target is to wait a few years until they become older people. So if our target for new shooters is older people with some disposable income, we should make changes that would encourage those people to shoot FT.

On the other hand, if we have decided to stop trying to change things to encourage new shooters to come out, we should change things for the current FT shooters. Unless they don't want things to change, in which case we should leave things alone. In business, they say that it is much easier and cheaper to retain employees than it is to hire new employees. Maybe the way to grow FT is to first stop shrinking it.

I've made suggestions in the past towards that end, and the usual gatekeepers are happy to tell me that they don't want things to change. Like a beaten dog, I still show up to FT matches but I don't look forward to them as much as I used to and I often look for reasons to do something else on match days. I think I'm still too young to truly appreciate FT, maybe it will still be here when I get a few years older.

I can’t imagine showing up at a match with receipts for my toys not relevant to shooting well imo.

 

[Franklink]

What happens when they shoot at National Events?

Some of us that have cleaned more than one monthly match don't go to Nationals. But we do have Nationals champs in our clubs. Kent G is one that cleans monthly matches occasionally. From what I can tell, the most recent "big" match that he shot at was the 2022 Sonoran Grand Prix. He took 1st in Hunter with the highest overall score for all AAFTA classes.

 

[Franklink]

See atendance tally from 10/20/24 nationals event

Saw a scorecard yesterday on social media and it looked like only the 3 Open shooters previously mentioned. That was just the markerboard and haven't seen the official results yet but looked like 18 Hunter class shooters (that was only one column, looked like there could have been another column). Regardless, it was at least 6:1, of Hunter to Open.

Also looks like the numbers are highly skewed to WFTF back east, compared to out west. Something like 22 WFTF'rs, between Piston and PCP. Also, this is the last match before Worlds...

I don't know those shooters well enough to know if/how many of them are typical Open/Hunter guys that will go back to their normal classes in December.

 

[humbled.ag]

Cleaning 40 shot courses under 30t with one or no positional lanes isn't overly difficult with a 20fpe rig.

Not attending Nats because you cleaned an easier course you've shot many times over isn't something to brag about. And if I'm honest, it sounds like those members are afraid to be exposed as not great shots when presented with a difficult Nationals course.

As for travel, I get it. Most folks prefer what they know and don't like being uncomfortable in places they haven't been. Travel isn't for most. But lets not make weak excuses bases on biased information.

 

[Franklink]

Cleaning 40 shot courses under 30t with one or no positional lanes isn't overly difficult with a 20fpe rig.

Not attending Nats because you cleaned an easier course you've shot many times over isn't something to brag about. And if I'm honest, it sounds like those members are afraid to be exposed as not great shots when presented with a difficult Nationals course.

As for travel, I get it. Most folks prefer what they know and don't like being uncomfortable in places they haven't been. Travel isn't for most. But lets not make weak excuses bases on biased information.

Some zingers in there.

I don't go to nationals for multiple reasons. I have a young family. I don't shoot on Sundays. I still work full time.

Our AZ sub20 matches are a new course every month. Never the same targets in the same places at the same distances month after month after months the way I understand some clubs do It.

The Nationals concept is interesting. I view field target as a fun monthly activity where I can go hang out and shoot with friends. And of course the competition side of it is fun. Even if it wasn't for the aforementioned factors, I'm not sure I would have traveled from Arizona to the other corner of the country for Nationals this year. I wouldn't want to deal with shipping or transporting my guns, and frankly, if I'm gonna spend the kind of money for a vacation that Nationals would cost, I'm going somewhere and doing something a heck of a lot more exciting than shooting steel animals like I can do at four different field target clubs within driving distance.

Some of my cleaned monthly matches had forced position shots. Some of them were Ts in the low 30s. Highest Troyer match that I did the best on was probably a 1 miss match for a T just under 35, and it was a 60 shot match.

The conversation being about that at this point is another strange detour this discussion has taken.

I'll help you out with a reminder.....this was originally about combining Open and Hunter because Open class is dying and because many (perhaps a majority?) of Hunter class would like the 16x scope limit lifted. Seems a simple two birds with one stone proposition to me.

 

[Therealld]

I have said many times forf many years we should roll unlimited into the open class. I think hunter is doing fine already, though another mag bump to 24X would be nice.


LD

 

[jps2486]

Why not? It all boils down to us shooters competing against each other,and the one with the best marksmanship wins. Rules should be consistent so that no one has an advantage. If the rules call for 16x magnification or whatever, so be it. Arguing over these picayune rules gets old. Simplify them.

 

[Scotchmo]

For small local matches, it doesn’t really matter. We usually only have 5 to 10 shooters at our monthly matches. We don’t run them strictly as AAFTA matches. We keep score and announce them at the end of the match. Nobody really cares which division/class you shot in. Shoot any safe way you want, including freestyle.

For GPs and Nationals it matters. I’d give Open Division another year to see how it goes before calling for its removal or combining. It might recover some. According to the rules, a GP class only needs three competitors, shooting at least two matches each, in the whole country to have a GP award for that year. Open PCP still meets that standard.

Open Piston died on its own as a GP class as no award has been presented since 2018.

The next class that is on life support is Limited Pistol. It wasn’t contested at the Nationals this year, and it barely qualified for a GP award. It’s a much easier combination with Hunter Pistol as they would only need to give up clicking. Or, instead of calling it Hunter Pistol FT, just call it Pistol FT and allow clicking as well.

Though there are some current guidelines on the minimum number (3) in a class to give out an award at any one GP series match, it’s not a rule any longer. So maybe just leave the classes as is, and If one person shows up to shoot Open PCP, or Open Piston, or Limited Pistol, give them a token award.

 

[Chas DiCapua]

I'll wade (maybe just one leg) into the murk here. Having shot Open class for 4 or 5 years, I appreciate it for a few things. One being that you're on a bum bag, albeit with a harness, and that's a good stepping stone to WFTF is one is heading in that direction. Also, same regs around scope, so, again, good traing for WFTF in terms of rangefinding. The 20fpe makes the game a bit easier with the wind, and if you've got a poly barrel shooting the old design monsters, it's hard to miss.
I hope the class reamains and I hope more people will check it out. I know two people (one in my area (Mass) and one in the Buffalo area) who have recently taken up Open class. If we can just get someone to make harnesses so that they are redily available, that would really help the cause.

 

[humbled.ag]

Break out the Sewing machine Chas!

 

[Bramezy]

I'll wade (maybe just one leg) into the murk here. Having shot Open class for 4 or 5 years, I appreciate it for a few things. One being that you're on a bum bag, albeit with a harness, and that's a good stepping stone to WFTF is one is heading in that direction. Also, same regs around scope, so, again, good traing for WFTF in terms of rangefinding. The 20fpe makes the game a bit easier with the wind, and if you've got a poly barrel shooting the old design monsters, it's hard to miss.
I hope the class reamains and I hope more people will check it out. I know two people (one in my area (Mass) and one in the Buffalo area) who have recently taken up Open class. If we can just get someone to make harnesses so that they are redily available, that would really help the cause.

I can't get my poly barrels to shot the 13gr for anything! OG or RD

 

[Motorhead]

Our season ending last club match ...
1) WFTF PCP shooter
4) Piston shooters { 2 HUNTER, 2 WFTF )
16) Hunter PCP Shooters
ZERO Open class

Actually for the entire 2024 season we may have had maybe 2 shoot open for a single match ... yea Open is DEAD !!!

 

[cavedweller]

Our season ending last club match ...
1) WFTF PCP shooter
4) Piston shooters { 2 HUNTER, 2 WFTF )
16) Hunter PCP Shooters
ZERO Open class

Actually for the entire 2024 season we may have had maybe 2 shoot open for a single match ... yea Open is DEAD !!!

In retrospect,,,, do you think it's an age, injuries thing or because the sport evolving with the newer tech?

 

[Motorhead]

In retrospect,,,, do you think it's an age, injuries thing or because the sport evolving with the newer tech?

Body harness / slings you can no longer purchase .... lap braces or other apparatus one has to fabricate and guns require stable adjustable hamsters.
The guns trend to be exotic as the scopes large & expensive. Folks seem to want less fiddle and more shoot friendly.

 

[cavedweller]

Body harness / slings you can no longer purchase .... lap braces or other apparatus one has to fabricate and guns require stable adjustable hamsters.
The guns trend to be exotic as the scopes large & expensive. Folks seem to want less fiddle and more shoot friendly.

ahhh makes sense

 

[TargetOH]

I posted this on another thread about the new butt attachment rule change proposal, but also makes sense to be here too.

There’s good news and bad news. The bad news is this topic is way past the “passing discussion” phase. It's a proposal that has already been submitted to the BOG. And the BOG intends to vote on it before the start of next years FT season. The good news is they have passed the news about proposed rule changes to the match directors of the member clubs. This is a new and positive development that they are asking for input before voting, especially since Hunter class isn’t well represented on the BOG. The real question is the logic behind the request and how we should really define the classes. EVERY class of FT (even WFTF) was created as a hunting simulation game. Therefore I think naming a class “Hunter” was a mistake. The beauty and challenge of the class is to range find without massive magnification. I personally think the magnification should stay at 16X or even go back to 12X. It would be a positive thing for those that truly embrace this challenge. These attempts to make this class about simple, inexpensive, and stock equipment will only kill the class and kill a ton of enthusiasm for FT. If there needs to be a limit on the butt attachments, make it 2, 3 or even 4” from the center to a line between the ears (1” was proposed). Let everyone experiment with fitting the rifle to their body and improving their shooting comfort without going overboard with something that goes over the shoulder or wraps all the way around your arm. Now then, what do we do with those that want extra magnification? The simple solution is to allow bucket and sticks in the open class. They open class is already dying. Participation is almost non existent. No one can buy straps anymore. Open should be what the name suggests, Open to anything allowed in any other class. Why would the bum bag and straps guys feel threatened by an old guy on bucket and sticks that wants to use more magnification? Leave the “magnification challenged” class alone and keep it growing at the rapid pace it has been. We can also save and grow the open class at the same time.