Time to combine Open and Hunter?

[Franklink]

I posted this on another thread about the new butt attachment rule change proposal, but also makes sense to be here too.

There’s good news and bad news. The bad news is this topic is way past the “passing discussion” phase. It's a proposal that has already been submitted to the BOG. And the BOG intends to vote on it before the start of next years FT season. The good news is they have passed the news about proposed rule changes to the match directors of the member clubs. This is a new and positive development that they are asking for input before voting, especially since Hunter class isn’t well represented on the BOG. The real question is the logic behind the request and how we should really define the classes. EVERY class of FT (even WFTF) was created as a hunting simulation game. Therefore I think naming a class “Hunter” was a mistake. The beauty and challenge of the class is to range find without massive magnification. I personally think the magnification should stay at 16X or even go back to 12X. It would be a positive thing for those that truly embrace this challenge. These attempts to make this class about simple, inexpensive, and stock equipment will only kill the class and kill a ton of enthusiasm for FT. If there needs to be a limit on the butt attachments, make it 2, 3 or even 4” from the center to a line between the ears (1” was proposed). Let everyone experiment with fitting the rifle to their body and improving their shooting comfort without going overboard with something that goes over the shoulder or wraps all the way around your arm. Now then, what do we do with those that want extra magnification? The simple solution is to allow bucket and sticks in the open class. They open class is already dying. Participation is almost non existent. No one can buy straps anymore. Open should be what the name suggests, Open to anything allowed in any other class. Why would the bum bag and straps guys feel threatened by an old guy on bucket and sticks that wants to use more magnification? Leave the “magnification challenged” class alone and keep it growing at the rapid pace it has been. We can also save and grow the open class at the same time.

I'll duplicate my response here as well ..

First off I agree.

You say leave Hunter as-is but your suggestion of making bucket and sticks legal for Open class actually WOULD affect Hunter class. There would be an inversion in the numbers. Currently there is roughly 0-1 Open Class shooter for every 10-15 Hunter class shooters. Allowing buckets and sticks position in Open would reverse that.

IE, if guys could shoot from the more comfortable bucket and sticks position, WITH unlimited scope power, they'd absolutely flock to that class.

It could be the biggest class shake-up field target has seen since PCPs showed up.

 

[cavedweller]

I'll duplicate my response here as well ..

First off I agree.

You say leave Hunter as-is but your suggestion of making bucket and sticks legal for Open class actually WOULD affect Hunter class. There would be an inversion in the numbers. Currently there is roughly 0-1 Open Class shooter for every 10-15 Hunter class shooters. Allowing buckets and sticks position in Open would reverse that.

IE, if guys could shoot from the more comfortable bucket and sticks position, WITH unlimited scope power, they'd absolutely flock to that class.

It could be the biggest class shake-up field target has seen since PCPs showed up.

it occurs to me, that we are obsessing over two things... a seated position and magnification levels on scopes.
The bum bag seated position and gear/straps etc... is most likely what is killing off Open participants.
Combining the two categories would bring things back to life, and be easiest but we still need to address the other limitation or restrictions which could be done as follows.

Make Hunter PCP two classes:

<16X sit on what ya want - sticks as current

<60X sit on what ya want - sticks / hamsters / palm risers all ok if used similar to WFTF guidelines.

I know that newbie shooters or financially challenged members will always object to the (arms / equipment race) but by leaving them the option to remain competitive in a <16X class, they can compete there for as long as they want or until such time as they choose to increase their equipment capability.

 

[TargetOH]

it occurs to me, that we are obsessing over two things... a seated position and magnification levels on scopes.
The bum bag seated position and gear/straps etc... is most likely what is killing off Open participants.
Combining the two categories would bring things back to life, and be easiest but we still need to address the other limitation or restrictions which could be done as follows.

Make Hunter PCP two classes:

<16X sit on what ya want - sticks as current

<60X sit on what ya want - sticks / hamsters / palm risers all ok if used similar to WFTF guidelines.

I know that newbie shooters or financially challenged members will always object to the (arms / equipment race) but by leaving them the option to remain competitive in a <16X class, they can compete there for as long as they want or until such time as they choose to increase their equipment capability.

The only change needed is making bucket and sticks allowed in open class. That solves the magnification issue and brings Life back to the open class. Creating a new sub class or adding another class further fractures the small number of existing participants. we need fewer classes not more.

 

[Kdog]

I posted this on another thread about the new butt attachment rule change proposal, but also makes sense to be here too.

There’s good news and bad news. The bad news is this topic is way past the “passing discussion” phase. It's a proposal that has already been submitted to the BOG. And the BOG intends to vote on it before the start of next years FT season. The good news is they have passed the news about proposed rule changes to the match directors of the member clubs. This is a new and positive development that they are asking for input before voting, especially since Hunter class isn’t well represented on the BOG. The real question is the logic behind the request and how we should really define the classes. EVERY class of FT (even WFTF) was created as a hunting simulation game. Therefore I think naming a class “Hunter” was a mistake. The beauty and challenge of the class is to range find without massive magnification. I personally think the magnification should stay at 16X or even go back to 12X. It would be a positive thing for those that truly embrace this challenge. These attempts to make this class about simple, inexpensive, and stock equipment will only kill the class and kill a ton of enthusiasm for FT. If there needs to be a limit on the butt attachments, make it 2, 3 or even 4” from the center to a line between the ears (1” was proposed). Let everyone experiment with fitting the rifle to their body and improving their shooting comfort without going overboard with something that goes over the shoulder or wraps all the way around your arm. Now then, what do we do with those that want extra magnification? The simple solution is to allow bucket and sticks in the open class. They open class is already dying. Participation is almost non existent. No one can buy straps anymore. Open should be what the name suggests, Open to anything allowed in any other class. Why would the bum bag and straps guys feel threatened by an old guy on bucket and sticks that wants to use more magnification? Leave the “magnification challenged” class alone and keep it growing at the rapid pace it has been. We can also save and grow the open class at the same time.

So in other words make the unlimited class open class. Personally I think ALL these classes should be left alone. Like was said earlier by Chas Open class is a great class for those that want to try sitting on a bum bag but may not have a 12ft lb rifle.

The problem I see with FT in the USA Is everyone breaks in shooting Hunter class and sees how convenient it is to plop there ass on a bucket and use shooting sticks to steady their rifle. They get use to this convenient way of shooting and never try ANY other class. Then you have the ones that want more magnification while shooting off a bucket and using sticks. Like where's the challenge if that was to happen. I also agree with TargetOH and think Hunter class should go back to 12X magnification and while there at it make it 12 ft lbs as well and while we're at it let's do like they do in England and lay prone and not be able to adjust your parallax. Let's make Hunter division like it was intended to be shot.

 

[TargetOH]

So in other words make the unlimited class open class. Personally I think ALL these classes should be left alone. Like was said earlier by Chas Open class is a great class for those that want to try sitting on a bum bag but may not have a 12ft lb rifle.

The problem I see with FT in the USA Is everyone breaks in shooting Hunter class and sees how convenient it is to plop there ass on a bucket and use shooting sticks to steady their rifle. They get use to this convenient way of shooting and never try ANY other class. Then you have the ones that want more magnification while shooting off a bucket and using sticks. Like where's the challenge if that was to happen. I also agree with TargetOH and think Hunter class should go back to 12X magnification and while there at it make it 12 ft lbs as well and while we're at it let's do like they do in England and lay prone and not be able to adjust your parallax. Let's make Hunter division like it was intended to be shot.

No, unlimited would still be their own unofficial class. The only change would be open would now allow seats/buckets and bipods. That would make it a truly “open” class where any combination of aids are allowed. It would give the hunter shooters that want higher magnification a place to go. And in return, the open class will survive and would hopefully have enough participants to get awards.

 

[scotton]

Just to dip my toe back into this thing, I want to address something that keeps coming up. Is the lack of commercially available harnesses really the thing that's keeping people out of Open class? Because I went on Amazon and bought a 1.5" buckle and strap set for $18 and had a harness ready to go in about 10 minutes. And I had enough material left over to make a second harness. No sewing involved, I just did it the old fashioned way by figuring crap out. I've made a harness by attaching straps to an old hunting fanny pack, or attaching straps to an old shotgun vest, or attaching straps to a shooting jacket (to be fair, that involved a little sewing to attach buckles to the side of the jacket).

My point is that if someone really wants to shoot Open class but isn't because they can't pay $100 for an off the shelf harness, I don't think they really want to shoot Open class.

Another thing I would like to say is that some people like having a problem more than having a solution. A lot of my frustration with field target stems from me forgetting this aspect of human nature.

 

[Kdog]

No, unlimited would still be their own unofficial class. The only change would be open would now allow seats/buckets and bipods. That would make it a truly “open” class where any combination of aids are allowed. It would give the hunter shooters that want higher magnification a place to go. And in return, the open class will survive and would hopefully have enough participants to get awards.

Shooting off a bum bag and shooting off a bucket and sticks are too COMPLETELY different disciplines. You should try it and then tell me differently. You really don't need the straps you still have 20 ft lbs so wind holdovers are really easy! I get the fact that alot of people are older and their health prevents them from getting up and down off the ground but for those that can should be shooting off a bum bag in open or WFTF. It's more like how the sport was intended to be played. We just want things uber easy and convenient here in the USA . I commend a long time Hunter shooter Rick Vaeth for trying open class at the end of this FT season here on the East Coast. Although Rick is older I believe in his 60s he's up for a different challenge shooting open class. He has definitely earned my respect trying a new discipline. Something VERY rarely seen a Hunter shooter getting rid of the ole bucket and sticks and trying a class more physically demanding discipline.

 

[thomasair]

Shooting from a bag is way different than shooting from sticks and a bucket. It's universally more difficult to learn to shoot from a bag...although many proficient in bucket shooting will disagree.

I wonder what is the number of hunter shooters that are attending worlds with high hopes this year? I don't know all the names or I would look myself.

I'm betting the number of guys that transition to wftf is higher per capita in open than hunter. That's the purpose of the class.

Mike

 

[TargetOH]

Awwww, come on guys. Hunter class is just trying to unload those shooters that think they need more magnification. Won't anyone take them?

On a more serious note, it appears neither the hunter class or the open class want to be combined with anyone (the original subject of this thread) or their rules changed in any significant way. I think the one suggestion that is making more and more sense is to add the unlimited class and let the chips fall where they may. Doesn’t matter if the participation is low in a class as long everyone is having fun shooting however they want.

 

[drsquall]

Awwww, come on guys. Hunter class is just trying to unload those shooters that think they need more magnification. Won't anyone take them?

On a more serious note, it appears neither the hunter class or the open class want to be combined with anyone (the original subject of this thread) or their rules changed in any significant way. I think the one suggestion that is making more and more sense is to add the unlimited class and let the chips fall where they may. Doesn’t matter if the participation is low in a class as long everyone is having fun shooting however they want.

I tried to shoot a match in unlimited and I ended up leaving before the match because I got the feeling that it was going to cause a stink with some of the other shooters. So I just grabbed my stuff and left. I could have been wrong but that's how I hunt with my range finder and dial and wanted to practice. But it's ultimately up to the MDs so it is what it is. They were okay with but you could tell they really didnt want me to do it.

 

[Scotchmo]

I tried to shoot a match in unlimited and I ended up leaving before the match because I got the feeling that it was going to cause a stink with some of the other shooters. So I just grabbed my stuff and left. I could have been wrong but that's how I hunt with my range finder and dial and wanted to practice. But it's ultimately up to the MDs so it is what it is. They were okay with but you could tell they really didnt want me to do it.

At our monthly matches, we’d rather have someone show up using a range finder, rather than not participate.

 

[Cloud9AG]

I tried to shoot a match in unlimited and I ended up leaving before the match because I got the feeling that it was going to cause a stink with some of the other shooters. So I just grabbed my stuff and left. I could have been wrong but that's how I hunt with my range finder and dial and wanted to practice. But it's ultimately up to the MDs so it is what it is. They were okay with but you could tell they really didnt want me to do it.

AAFTA has counseled match directors to allow an Unlimited class if they feel it is warranted. We have a few Unlimited shooters in Texas. You can come and shoot with us.

 

[scotton]

AAFTA has counseled match directors to allow an Unlimited class if they feel it is warranted. We have a few Unlimited shooters in Texas. You can come and shoot with us.

Cloud, I'm not sure you realize who you are inviting to shoot with us. Mr. Squall (excuse me, DR Squall) is a notorious Okie and a schizophrenic air gun purchaser. Honestly, if he had shown up at our recent match with a rangefinder and an Impact, I would have probably given him the ick until he left as well.

Note to moderators: I am friends with both Cloud9AG and drsquall. This post is an attempt at harmless banter and marginal humor. Please don't take this post (or any of my posts) seriously and delete it.

 

[drsquall]

Cloud, I'm not sure you realize who you are inviting to shoot with us. Mr. Squall (excuse me, DR Squall) is a notorious Okie and a schizophrenic air gun purchaser. Honestly, if he had shown up at our recent match with a rangefinder and an Impact, I would have probably given him the ick until he left as well.

Note to moderators: I am friends with both Cloud9AG and drsquall. This post is an attempt at harmless banter and marginal humor. Please don't take this post (or any of my posts) seriously and delete it.

Hey, still looking for the perfect airgun but no luck yet. @scotton As long as I get to shoot with you so we can talk smack and "help" each other become better FT shooters-lol

 

[scotton]

I'm glad those 4 years at Squall school weren't wasted, Doctor

 

[drsquall]

I'm glad those 4 years at Squall school weren't wasted, Doctor

Well I only go by Dr. around you. I quit practice in 2012 lol. Squall school expensive

 

[steve123]

I've seen it too many times now.
As alluded to already it won't make any difference in scores if shooting in PCP Unlimited, Hunter, or Open. Highest match score is literally who can read wind the best, or more importantly who is best at positional, and who is making the least mental mistakes ON THAT DAY/DAYS.

Years ago some members in our club didn't use any aids at all and they'd almost dominate for highest match score, though were in Open division. One won the nationals at some point.

WFTF can also get high match score if the wind is down so Leave this division alone/ and combine the rest with the inclusion of a AAFTA Unlimited division.

That way at least we can argue about something else, lol.

 

[drsquall]

I've seen it too many times now.
As alluded to already it won't make any difference in scores if shooting in PCP Unlimited, Hunter, or Open. Highest match score is literally who can read wind the best, or more importantly who is best at positional, and who is making the least mental mistakes ON THAT DAY/DAYS.

Years ago some members in our club didn't use any aids at all and they'd almost dominate for highest match score, though were in Open division. One won the nationals at some point.

WFTF can also get high match score if the wind is down so Leave this division alone/ and combine the rest with the inclusion of a AAFTA Unlimited division.

That way at least we can argue about something else, lol.

I have to be honest I will probably never go to a national event or even a GP so my opinion is a selfish one and shouldn't count. I just like to practice how I hunt and visit with the folks.

 

[CurtisNelson]

Shooting from a bag is way different than shooting from sticks and a bucket. It's universally more difficult to learn to shoot from a bag...although many proficient in bucket shooting will disagree.

I wonder what is the number of hunter shooters that are attending worlds with high hopes this year? I don't know all the names or I would look myself.

I'm betting the number of guys that transition to wftf is higher per capita in open than hunter. That's the purpose of the class.

Mike

The non-WFTF shooters I know are NOT expecting to do well in WFTF, but rather are choosing to support the match because it is here in the U.S.

 

[thane]

Shooting from a bag is way different than shooting from sticks and a bucket. It's universally more difficult to learn to shoot from a bag...although many proficient in bucket shooting will disagree.

I wonder what is the number of hunter shooters that are attending worlds with high hopes this year? I don't know all the names or I would look myself.

I'm betting the number of guys that transition to wftf is higher per capita in open than hunter. That's the purpose of the class.

Mike

I normally shoot Hunter and am attending worlds with a number of other hunters. Shooting with friends and making new friends at what will be an awesome 3 days is award enough. No shame ever in losing to awesome shooters, if anything it will be a great learning experience stretching skill sets.

Looking forward to seeing Garrett what and his crew puts together, sure to be the best yet.