Time to combine Open and Hunter?

[Bramezy]

Hunter shooters could still shoot from the same position they're currently using. Why do you think combining the two classes would kill Hunter?



Shooting sticks aren't a gadget/shooting aid?

As mentioned above, Open is more similar to WFTF than Hunter. Basically you want to rename Open to hunter. I like it how it is. If open is not currently popular, why do people think making any type of change will change that? Its available to shoot today but obviously people don't want to.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Bipod/Sticks are about as necessary to shoot from as you can get in what we do, come on now. Tripod is dumb, now anyone can go out and clear a course, lets use bipods from standing too. Where is the challenge and fun? Again, the class already exists for those that want to shoot it, go for it.

 

[AirGoon]

Grow the sport... not the rules governing or restricting the sport... it's all about having fun anyway.

AGREED! But a popular rule change could grow the sport.

 

[Bramezy]

You may be right, but as a Hunter shooter, I'm always ready to vote for an idea that allows more than 16x magnification! LOL

Shoot open or unlimited then, right?

 

[Franklink]

$$ doesn't mean much. You can get very good quality of scope and gun for far less than people spend. If you build it they will buy it. The age we will in now people like to show off too, so ooh look at my $7,000 setup, i get beat by $600 setups but oh well. To each his own there, spend as much or little as you like and go have fun. I personally think you would ruin Hunter class by combining or changing the rules essentially.

The argument often posed is that Hunter is for newcomers, as it was here. Then I go to a match and see scopes on guns in Hunter class that cost a couple thousand bucks.

 

[Franklink]

@Bramezy
Lots of the Hunter guys that have been doing it for a long time want the 16x scope restriction lifted.
Lots of people feel the field of competitors is excessively fragmented.

My (not new or novel) idea solves a couple of long-standing problems/gripes.

I'd actually like to hear your perspective on how combining the two would ruin Hunter.

 

[Franklink]

Shoot open or unlimited then, right?

A couple problems with that solution. Unlimited is not a recognized AAFTA class. Limited participation in both Open and Unlimited means you're sometimes the only guy I those classes. And finally, physical limitations.

So to get to use sufficient scope magnification by shooting in Open youve got to get down on a bumbag. Many FT shooters are old. Hence the popularity of Hunter class.

To get to use sufficient scope magnification by shooting in Unlimited means you're shooting in the bastard class that isn't even offered at larger matches like GPs, some state shoots, and Nationals.

 

[drsquall]

The fact is more people shoot Hunter because WFTF and open are much more harder to be good at plain and simple. You can sugarcoat it all you want but sitting on the bucket and shooting off sticks is a heck of a lot easier than WFTF/open and I don't care who you are. It's common sense the more contact points you have the more steady you are. When I did it briefly I shot Hunter because I like shooting off sticks in a bucket but I absolutely despise using my scope as a rangefinder so I quit.

 

[Franklink]

For those saying Open is similar to WFTF let me remind you that Open is sub 20 fpe and WFTF is sub12fpe.
And that Hunter is sub20fpe and Open is sub20fpe.

That 12fpe handicap is huge. And a much vaster performance gap to cross than any shooting aids create.

 

[Lgwoodworker]

First off, this isn't pitchforks. Nor is it demands to the BOG. Nor do I want it to become a BOG bash. Let's see if we can discuss this in a civil manner.

While nothing compared to many that have been doing it for multiple decades, I've been involved in ft since the 12x Hunter class days. Around the time the rules changed to 16x was the time I started shooting in Open class. I shot there a couple years, and about 2 years ago switched to mostly Hunter when the Open class participation got nearly non-existent at the monthly matches of the 3 clubs I attend. I prefer Open, feeling slightly more stable from the bumbag/harness position, and the unlimited scope power, and the ability to dial the turrets. But I can also hold my own from the Hunter class position and rules.

The recent Pyramyd Air Cup is what prompted this post. Somebody shared some photos of the scoreboards on Instagram. If I'm reading it right, I'm counting 58 Hunter class shooters, and 5 Open class shooters. At an 11.6:1 participation ratio, I think we're at the point of bringing the combining of the two classes up for discussion.

So how do we all feel about a combined Open/Hunter class?
The way I envision this is that the 16x scope restriction for Hunter class is lifted, allowing Hunter class to use any scope they want, at any magnification level. While the no-harness, no-straps, etc rules are lifted to allow the typical Open class position to shoot with the Hunter class. For the "new" class, essentially: keep the no attached bipod rule, and keep the no tripod rule, and keep the no laser rangefinder rule. In other words, change the rules so that current Open and Hunter class positions and equipment are all one class.

Hunter class gets what they want with the removal of the scope restriction. And the few remaining Open class shooters can still shoot from their favored position and actually have a class in which to do so.

Hunter class guys....Would you be mad about this? Quit the game/sport?
Open class guys....Would you be mad about this? Quit the game/sport?
WFTF class guys.....Would you....nevermind. This doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever.

From my perspective, combining the two classes sure wouldn't alienate any newbies, since Hunter is no longer a new-comer class but rather the largest field contested. ie Hunter is not a new-comer class, whether it was ever meant to be at inception or not, it simply isn't now.

What say ye?

Am I missing some valid reason why we should keep the current situation and not consolidate Open and Hunter? I'm only seeing this as a win-win for both classes and field target as a whole, but I'm just one person.

I am not opposed to folding in a dying part (questionable, since shooters still do it) of the FT game into another that is potentially compatible from a rules and equipment perspective. I would not be mad about this and i would not quit the sport. I have no problem with any of the rules and restrictions of any of the classes, though i wonder that some are changed on what seems capricious whims. I don’t know that it would “kill” Hunter class to fold in Open, but I do think Hunter “ain’t broke, so don’t fix it”.

Major League Baseball rules say that you get 3 strikes, it’s 60’6” from the rubber to the plate, the chalk lines are fair territory, etc. We don’t expect to move the mound further back because Albert Pujols got too old and slow to hit a 98mph fastball. Move on to slow pitch softball. If it is an AAFTA national championship, or GP championship, or big money is involved, play by the rules established by the governing body and reap the glory of winning. If not, rules and BOG be damned, have fun.

That said, I don’t have an issue with “slow pitch softball” accommodations to the sport for those with physical and/or age limitations (i am getting the age where i might want them). Most shooters are in it mostly for the fun. They don’t expect to win a national championship. As long as safety is not an issue, let people shoot with whatever accoutrements they want. If they come in second place out of 2, let them revel in that glory.

 

[Bramezy]

@Bramezy
Lots of the Hunter guys that have been doing it for a long time want the 16x scope restriction lifted.
Lots of people feel the field of competitors is excessively fragmented.

My (not new or novel) idea solves a couple of long-standing problems/gripes.

I'd actually like to hear your perspective on how combining the two would ruin Hunter.

I feel the current limitations in Hunter allow for a challenge. All the classes have their challenges and it seems making a class without any just ruins any type or sportsmanship to me. Whats the point of doing something if its so easy? I personally haven't cleared a course in Hunter yet, been close but haven't. I just feel the current rules are set to allow a good variety of abilities and still keep it challenging at the same time. WFTF and Piston classes are a whole other animal and have their own inherit challenges. I just feel of the current classes that exist people should be able to find one they prefer and shoot in it.

What are the long standing gripes? By how many people? Are we talking the .01% of the current shooters or 60% of the shooters have this gripe?
Ill ask my fellow shooters next time their opinions of Hunter class. I shoot with all ages.
Is it maybe people aren't aware of other classes?

 

[shootermeb]

Is your concern that Hunter class competitors would be run over by the Open class guys if they were in the same class? Ie Hunter couldn't be competitive in a class where they're shooting against guys that are shooting from Open class position?

The concept of Hunter being the place for new shooters is great, on paper. But in reality, the arms race is alive and well in Hunter just like it is in other classes. When I shoot in Hunter I'm using $550-600 scopes, and I'm on the low end of the dollar range of scopes being used. This is true at the three different clubs where I attend monthly matches.

My concern is that hunter will become open class, since that seems to be what people (on this thread) want. So we don't want to eliminate open, we want to eliminate hunter division, and add sticks and higher seats to open.

If you were allowed an unlimited power scope, and you could put clicks on the scope while you shoot, will you still be using the $600 scope? Or are you going to be shooting a March 8-80x? A scope known to have positive click functionality, and known to be of the best glass scopes. At least in current hunter rules, the 80x power capability is wasted money, and so is the positive click - this is why your $600 scope is no better or worse than a $3500 scope, you ability to use the features that make the scope a $3500 scope are muted.

What I don't want to see is FT turn into a benchrest game (adding tripods and such, even sticks + thigh rest); if you want to shoot benchrest, go shoot benchrest. I also don't want the entry division to be something where a new person believes they need to buy a custom cut shooting suit to be competitive, and a special stocked gun just to get started. The open class to me is nearly equivalent to how and outside observer sees the 3-position rifle game (the Olympics stuff), a bunch of specialized equipment that doesn't make sense and has dollar signs attached to it. Shooting with coat and pants helps a ton, especially in standing, so once it's allowed, it will become a necessity for those that want to be at the top of the scoreboard. And, since shooting sticks are a massive advantage in holding the gun stable, for the best shooters it's not overly challenging to clean all the sitting lanes with a 20fpe gun that's rested on sticks, so it will become an offhand competition, and any equipment advantage that can be gained will be used to buy points in offhand.

 

[Solo1]

Heres a thought lets all shoot open with bucket and styx. Any power scope dial or not range finders ok too. Then we put all the smart a$$es in open and leave the new guys shoot hunter

 

[Bramezy]

Lots of people feel the field of competitors is excessively fragmented.

By age or equipment?

 

[thane]

Field target shooters choose their preference every time they attend a match, Pyramid Air Cup was 5 to 58.

Allowing that small of a group to impact at over one magnatude the sample, just to be listed in the same scoring column is heavy handed to say the least. Just shoot Open Class/WFTF or join the Hunters... like most have already done.

It will be a bad day squading with a fellow Hunter at a GP who is wearing a jacket and harness, zooming to 60x, dialing and shooting off a bipod... then losing to them by one point... ouch

 

[Motorhead]

DING DING DING ... we have a winner !!

My concern is that hunter will become open class, since that seems to be what people (on this thread) want. So we don't want to eliminate open, we want to eliminate hunter division, and add sticks and higher seats to open.

 

[AirNGasman]

Good post and thread, FL. I'll dive in.

As perhaps the most experienced Hunter in this thread, I'd have no objections to your proposal. However, neither will I lobby for it, for a couple reasons.

1) This old rules warrior has grown battle-weary enough to choose my battles more wisely than in the past. That means it takes more incentive to get me out of the recliner to put myself in harm's way. But it also means I'll still jump right in the middle of frays I feel strongly about; usually those I feel threatening to my preferred competition (Field Target). Hence, in this (particular) case I'm happy to put less battle-weary foot-soldiers on the front line (like you, for example).

2) An ulterior motive for me to join this conversation is the perfect opportunity to correct Hunter division dysfunctions resulting from its 'evolution' (read that- DEVOLUTION). Hunter having become no longer a place for newbies to avoid humiliation in their first Field Target experience, no wonder FT growth is stunted. Hence, point 3.

3) A sub-class in Hunter division called Sportsman that seeks to re-emphasize hunting-related SHOOTING skills, rather than equipment "skills". How to do so? The following numbers would be debated, but for examples sake- A) A weight limit of 9 pounds for the whole rig, and/or B) An MSRP limit of $750 total on the whole rig, and/or C) A 12X scope magnification limit, and DEFINITELY D) Yardage markings on all scopes must be covered with black electrical tape.

Surely I jest?

No; I don't (this time). And don't call me Shirley!

.

 

[Franklink]

I should back up a bit here.
My idea of combining Hunter and Open is from my perspective, how I personally shoot Open. I don't use a shooting jacket or glove or big butt hook.

I can agree that shooting jackets and shooting gloves and butthooks shouldn't be allowed in this theoretical new class. I can even go along with keeping hamster height to what's currently allowed in Hunter and disallowing thigh rests.

I can't think of one Hunter class acquaintance who would prefer to keep the 16x scope limit if the alternative was unlimited scope magnification and dialong the turret.

So, combined Hunter/Open in the way I'm talking doesn't do away with current Hunter, nor would the current Hunter shooting guys be trampled by the inclusion of the gadgets some guys choose to use in the current Open class.

Realistically, the net effect of these changes would just mean Hunter no longer has a scope restriction. There would be very few bumbag/harness guys. .

 

[Bramezy]

I should back up a bit here.
My idea of combining Hunter and Open is from my perspective, how I personally shoot Open. I don't use a shooting jacket or glove or big butt hook.

I can agree that shooting jackets and shooting gloves and butthooks shouldn't be allowed in this theoretical new class. I can even go along with keeping hamster height to what's currently allowed in Hunter and disallowing thigh rests.

I can't think of one Hunter class acquaintance who would prefer to keep the 16x scope limit if the alternative was unlimited scope magnification and dialong the turret.

So, combined Hunter/Open in the way I'm talking doesn't do away with current Hunter, nor would the current Hunter shooting guys be trampled by the inclusion of the gadgets some guys choose to use in the current Open class.

Realistically, the net effect of these changes would just mean Hunter no longer has a scope restriction. There would be very few bumbag/harness guys. .

Understood. I have been texting my shooting buddies and so far all but one would keep the 16x. Thats from 40yrs to 80yrs old. Lots of opinions and perspectives out there. Funny my old guys like it as is. I was expecting something but no, said we like it that way.

 

[Franklink]

By age or equipment?

Both. The equipmen/class restrictions fragment the classes by segregating by age.

In a discipline where the average age of all competitors is likely 60+, it's no coincidence that the least physically demanding class is also the largest.

 

[Bramezy]

Its interesting to hear a few different opinions on this. At the end of the day I hope we can all have fun shooting together and enjoy FT. Its been an amazing addition to my life the last couple of years.