Time to combine Open and Hunter?

[Franklink]

First off, this isn't pitchforks. Nor is it demands to the BOG. Nor do I want it to become a BOG bash. Let's see if we can discuss this in a civil manner.

While nothing compared to many that have been doing it for multiple decades, I've been involved in ft since the 12x Hunter class days. Around the time the rules changed to 16x was the time I started shooting in Open class. I shot there a couple years, and about 2 years ago switched to mostly Hunter when the Open class participation got nearly non-existent at the monthly matches of the 3 clubs I attend. I prefer Open, feeling slightly more stable from the bumbag/harness position, and the unlimited scope power, and the ability to dial the turrets. But I can also hold my own from the Hunter class position and rules.

The recent Pyramyd Air Cup is what prompted this post. Somebody shared some photos of the scoreboards on Instagram. If I'm reading it right, I'm counting 58 Hunter class shooters, and 5 Open class shooters. At an 11.6:1 participation ratio, I think we're at the point of bringing the combining of the two classes up for discussion.

So how do we all feel about a combined Open/Hunter class?
The way I envision this is that the 16x scope restriction for Hunter class is lifted, allowing Hunter class to use any scope they want, at any magnification level. While the no-harness, no-straps, etc rules are lifted to allow the typical Open class position to shoot with the Hunter class. For the "new" class, essentially: keep the no attached bipod rule, and keep the no tripod rule, and keep the no laser rangefinder rule. In other words, change the rules so that current Open and Hunter class positions and equipment are all one class.

Hunter class gets what they want with the removal of the scope restriction. And the few remaining Open class shooters can still shoot from their favored position and actually have a class in which to do so.

Hunter class guys....Would you be mad about this? Quit the game/sport?
Open class guys....Would you be mad about this? Quit the game/sport?
WFTF class guys.....Would you....nevermind. This doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever.

From my perspective, combining the two classes sure wouldn't alienate any newbies, since Hunter is no longer a new-comer class but rather the largest field contested. ie Hunter is not a new-comer class, whether it was ever meant to be at inception or not, it simply isn't now.

What say ye?

Am I missing some valid reason why we should keep the current situation and not consolidate Open and Hunter? I'm only seeing this as a win-win for both classes and field target as a whole, but I'm just one person.

 

[Motorhead]

Got my nod of YES as I've been a proponent of such a class for 10+ years. We shot it as an offered tho non acknowledged AAFTA class.
The start of this was the push for a freestyle / unlimited class which had quite a few of us foot on the gas to make it happen .. sadly it never did
It would be close to your "Conversation" joining of the two. Yup those damn rules !!!

 

[Franklink]

We do a Freestyle/Unlimited here in AZ, but it's no rules whatsoever (other than sub 20fpe). So there have been guys with guns clamped into tripods and laser rangefinders, etc. I'm not sure that I'm behind all that.

 

[Franklink]

To clarify, I'm not gung-ho on fighting a war to make this change. If the rules stay how they currently are I'd be fine with that.

Open is on its last gasping, rattling dying breath. And Hunter dislikes the scope restrictions. Two birds with one stone.

 

[drsquall]

I would do it 100%. I absolutely hate ranging with a scope so I would have to do that I'm more of a rangefinder and shoot. I was going to do open and I bought the harnesses twice to do it but getting up and down with my bad back Not happening. I absolutely hate using holdover. I would do it because I like to dial in the higher magnification we all know is better for ranging. So I'm just going to shoot unlimited for now at my local matches and call it good.

 

[Solo1]

I would think that no matter what you do field target participation is on the way down. Look at the low amount of conversation or likes in the posts on this forum or others about the pa cup. I have a friend i made at the local club matches that doesn’t care for the ranging aspect and doesn’t come often anymore and he works his permissions almost every day. I don’t really have an answer except that i think no matter what you would try to do would cause enough upheaval to prevent it.

 

[drsquall]

I would think that no matter what you do field target participation is on the way down. Look at the low amount of conversation or likes in the posts on this forum or others about the pa cup. I have a friend i made at the local club matches that doesn’t care for the ranging aspect and doesn’t come often anymore and he works his permissions almost every day. I don’t really have an answer except that i think no matter what you would try to do would cause enough upheaval to prevent it.

Yeah, when I was doing it for a brief stent it was local stuff only. I'm not driving 10+ hours for a GP. Luckily the local matches I can go to allow the unlimited class. I hate setting up scope wheels lol. Also if we're honest most field target shooters are older close to retirement or retired. There is not too many young people shooting it because honestly it's slow paced and they're not into that. I'm 50 and I get pretty bored doing it at times. So when I do go occasionally I practice like I would when I hunt and I hunt 99.9% more than I shoot Field target matches. But to each his own and some people really enjoy it. I enjoy the visiting more than I do the shooting when I do go to field target matches.

 

[scotton]

First off, this isn't pitchforks. Nor is it demands to the BOG. Nor do I want it to become a BOG bash. Let's see if we can discuss this in a civil manner.

I don't have time to read the post right now, but the first sentence made me spit coffee. Oh, the many times I have started a post that way, just to watch the train slowly slide down the embankment.

I'll read the post this afternoon, I promise to leave my pitchfork in the shed.

 

[rich177]

It seems as if you really want an unlimited class/division. Bill Day Campaigned for that for years. AAFTA never adopted it and I never liked it but I gave it a try at our club. It never caught on. We get one or two people shooting it, not the vast numbers predicted. yes Hunter division has become most popular but if you look at Open and WFTA combined there are plenty of shooters. Every club has a different makeup of shooters, some with all hunter div., some with all WFTF and open, and some mixed. The disciplines are all different and there is no need the change them.
Rick B.

 

[shootermeb]

I see the open division as having many more tools available to it than the hunter division. There is so much difference that the open division is more comparable to WFTF than it is to hunter.

Open has all these advantages over hunter:
unlimited gun configuration (hooks, hamsters, thigh rests, allowed adjustments during course of fire, single point sling, etc.)
allowed use of shooting coat, pants, and gloves
unlimited scope power
allowed all scope adjustments (windage/elevation clicks).
shooting harness

Hunter has the advantage of using sticks and unlimited seat height.

The major differences between Open and WFTF are 20fpe vs 12fpe, and use of a harness. It makes more sense to combine open to WFTF, perhaps by allowing a harness (and other accessories) for US WFTF and keep the 12fpe limit. Then if the open shooters want to shoot WFTF, they need to tune their guns to 12fpe.
I don't see how to combine open to hunter without ruining both. I think the hunter division is good as it is, and has an affordable entry point for new shooters. The 16x power limit and the no clicking are things that keeps the scope price in check for new shooters. I can see how a new shooter wouldn't consider entering the open division, there is specialized equipment necessary to play on a perceived even playing field, and does anyone sell a harness anymore?

I can agree it might be time to kill off the open division, but not by combining it with hunter.

 

[Franklink]

It seems as if you really want an unlimited class/division. Bill Day Campaigned for that for years. AAFTA never adopted it and I never liked it but I gave it a try at our club. It never caught on. We get one or two people shooting it, not the vast numbers predicted. yes Hunter division has become most popular but if you look at Open and WFTA combined there are plenty of shooters. Every club has a different makeup of shooters, some with all hunter div., some with all WFTF and open, and some mixed. The disciplines are all different and there is no need the change them.
Rick B.

No, not Unlimited. At least not Unlimited the way I've seen it with laser rangefinders and guns clamped in tripods.

This is about combining current Open and Hunter positions and equipment, with the one exception being to let the Hunter guys use the same scopes the Open guys are using.

I don't understand why you suggest to "look at Open and WFTF combined there are plenty of shooters," that's 12 fpe and 20fpe.

The Hunter class dominating in participation numbers is at all the match reports I've read, countrywide.

 

[Franklink]

I see the open division as having many more tools available to it than the hunter division. There is so much difference that the open division is more comparable to WFTF than it is to hunter.

Open has all these advantages over hunter:
unlimited gun configuration (hooks, hamsters, thigh rests, allowed adjustments during course of fire, single point sling, etc.)
allowed use of shooting coat, pants, and gloves
unlimited scope power
allowed all scope adjustments (windage/elevation clicks).
shooting harness

Hunter has the advantage of using sticks and unlimited seat height.

The major differences between Open and WFTF are 20fpe vs 12fpe, and use of a harness. It makes more sense to combine open to WFTF, perhaps by allowing a harness (and other accessories) for US WFTF and keep the 12fpe limit. Then if the open shooters want to shoot WFTF, they need to tune their guns to 12fpe.
I don't see how to combine open to hunter without ruining both. I think the hunter division is good as it is, and has an affordable entry point for new shooters. The 16x power limit and the no clicking are things that keeps the scope price in check for new shooters. I can see how a new shooter wouldn't consider entering the open division, there is specialized equipment necessary to play on a perceived even playing field, and does anyone sell a harness anymore?

I can agree it might be time to kill off the open division, but not by combining it with hunter.

Is your concern that Hunter class competitors would be run over by the Open class guys if they were in the same class? Ie Hunter couldn't be competitive in a class where they're shooting against guys that are shooting from Open class position?

The concept of Hunter being the place for new shooters is great, on paper. But in reality, the arms race is alive and well in Hunter just like it is in other classes. When I shoot in Hunter I'm using $550-600 scopes, and I'm on the low end of the dollar range of scopes being used. This is true at the three different clubs where I attend monthly matches.

 

[cavedweller]

First off, this isn't pitchforks. Nor is it demands to the BOG. Nor do I want it to become a BOG bash. Let's see if we can discuss this in a civil manner.

While nothing compared to many that have been doing it for multiple decades, I've been involved in ft since the 12x Hunter class days. Around the time the rules changed to 16x was the time I started shooting in Open class. I shot there a couple years, and about 2 years ago switched to mostly Hunter when the Open class participation got nearly non-existent at the monthly matches of the 3 clubs I attend. I prefer Open, feeling slightly more stable from the bumbag/harness position, and the unlimited scope power, and the ability to dial the turrets. But I can also hold my own from the Hunter class position and rules.

The recent Pyramyd Air Cup is what prompted this post. Somebody shared some photos of the scoreboards on Instagram. If I'm reading it right, I'm counting 58 Hunter class shooters, and 5 Open class shooters. At an 11.6:1 participation ratio, I think we're at the point of bringing the combining of the two classes up for discussion.

So how do we all feel about a combined Open/Hunter class?
The way I envision this is that the 16x scope restriction for Hunter class is lifted, allowing Hunter class to use any scope they want, at any magnification level. While the no-harness, no-straps, etc rules are lifted to allow the typical Open class position to shoot with the Hunter class. For the "new" class, essentially: keep the no attached bipod rule, and keep the no tripod rule, and keep the no laser rangefinder rule. In other words, change the rules so that current Open and Hunter class positions and equipment are all one class.

Hunter class gets what they want with the removal of the scope restriction. And the few remaining Open class shooters can still shoot from their favored position and actually have a class in which to do so.

Hunter class guys....Would you be mad about this? Quit the game/sport?
Open class guys....Would you be mad about this? Quit the game/sport?
WFTF class guys.....Would you....nevermind. This doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever.

From my perspective, combining the two classes sure wouldn't alienate any newbies, since Hunter is no longer a new-comer class but rather the largest field contested. ie Hunter is not a new-comer class, whether it was ever meant to be at inception or not, it simply isn't now.

What say ye?

Am I missing some valid reason why we should keep the current situation and not consolidate Open and Hunter? I'm only seeing this as a win-win for both classes and field target as a whole, but I'm just one person.

As i have said before (regardless of my newness to the sport) all the different divisions and restrictions and rules are only a detriment.
WFTF folks should and will always compete against their specific <12ftlb group.

As for the <20 folks, other than common sense rules like, no tripods etc... let them use their magnification magnificence, and dial and click and let them sit on whatever the heck they want to... if needed, a special shooter category is acceptable for people with physical and or age limitations.
Grow the sport... not the rules governing or restricting the sport... it's all about having fun anyway. IMO.

Of recent i was thinking of trying Open or Unlimited or just do my own thing without worrying about who would complain - just so i could fully enjoy my new Sightron S6 FT scope.

 

[drsquall]

As i have said before (regardless of my newness to the sport) all the different divisions and restrictions and rules are only a detriment.
combine the. The WFTF folks should and will always compete against their specific <12ftlb group.
As for the <20 folks, other than common sense rules like, no tripods etc... let them use their magnification magnificence, and dial and click and let them sit on whatever the heck they want to... if needed a special shooter category is acceptable for people with physical and or age limitations. Grow the sport... not the rules governing or restricting the sport... it's all about having fun anyway. IMO. Of recent i was thinking of trying Open or Unlimited or just do my own thing without worrying about who would complain - just so i could fully enjoy my new Sightron S6 FT scope.

Yeah it's rough when you spend two grand on on a great scope and can't use it to its full potential because of the class you are shooting but I guess you know that going in. I'm with you though I'm gonna do my own thing I'm gonna shoot off a tripod not one that you clamp down in but one just a tripod that you can set the gun in just because that's the way I hunt and I want to practice for hunting and I don't care who beats me or how many people shoot with me. I'm going to use the rangefinder too because that's how hunt

 

[Bramezy]

I see the open division as having many more tools available to it than the hunter division. There is so much difference that the open division is more comparable to WFTF than it is to hunter.

Open has all these advantages over hunter:
unlimited gun configuration (hooks, hamsters, thigh rests, allowed adjustments during course of fire, single point sling, etc.)
allowed use of shooting coat, pants, and gloves
unlimited scope power
allowed all scope adjustments (windage/elevation clicks).
shooting harness

Hunter has the advantage of using sticks and unlimited seat height.

The major differences between Open and WFTF are 20fpe vs 12fpe, and use of a harness. It makes more sense to combine open to WFTF, perhaps by allowing a harness (and other accessories) for US WFTF and keep the 12fpe limit. Then if the open shooters want to shoot WFTF, they need to tune their guns to 12fpe.
I don't see how to combine open to hunter without ruining both. I think the hunter division is good as it is, and has an affordable entry point for new shooters. The 16x power limit and the no clicking are things that keeps the scope price in check for new shooters. I can see how a new shooter wouldn't consider entering the open division, there is specialized equipment necessary to play on a perceived even playing field, and does anyone sell a harness anymore?

I can agree it might be time to kill off the open division, but not by combining it with hunter.

I second this. This would kill hunter in my opinion and if Open is dying, why are you trying to sacrifice the largest class to save a few?
Leave hunter alone and as is. As a Hunter shooter I have no desire to change anything really. I dont want more than 16x, I dont want more advantages like straps and jackets etc...I like the rules and limitations as is. Id shoot Open if I didn't. Id say the others feel the same if there is only so few people shooting it. Hunter is fun, the challenge of a tough 55yd shot is fun. When you miss you try and figure out why so you try not to again. I personally dont have any desire to shoot any other class. Nothing else appeals to me but thats me, only 1 person. I know others like me but wont speak for them. We support Open and Unlimited at our local clubs but only 1-2 people ever shoot it occasionally.
Feels like cheating to me to use all those gadgets.

 

[Franklink]

....This would kill hunter in my opinion and if Open is dying, why are you trying to sacrifice the largest class to save a few?....
Leave hunter alone and as is.....

Hunter shooters could still shoot from the same position they're currently using. Why do you think combining the two classes would kill Hunter?

Feels like cheating to me to use all those gadgets.

Shooting sticks aren't a gadget/shooting aid?

 

[Bramezy]

Is your concern that Hunter class competitors would be run over by the Open class guys if they were in the same class? Ie Hunter couldn't be competitive in a class where they're shooting against guys that are shooting from Open class position?

The concept of Hunter being the place for new shooters is great, on paper. But in reality, the arms race is alive and well in Hunter just like it is in other classes. When I shoot in Hunter I'm using $550-600 scopes, and I'm on the low end of the dollar range of scopes being used. This is true at the three different clubs where I attend monthly matches.

$$ doesn't mean much. You can get very good quality of scope and gun for far less than people spend. If you build it they will buy it. The age we will in now people like to show off too, so ooh look at my $7,000 setup, i get beat by $600 setups but oh well. To each his own there, spend as much or little as you like and go have fun. I personally think you would ruin Hunter class by combining or changing the rules essentially.

 

[Franklink]

I personally think you would ruin Hunter class by combining or changing the rules essentially.

Why?

 

[AirGoon]

I don't see how to combine open to hunter without ruining both. I think the hunter division is good as it is,

You may be right, but as a Hunter shooter, I'm always ready to vote for an idea that allows more than 16x magnification! LOL

 

[Franklink]

Seems to be an undertone that Hunter class couldn't compete against guys shooting from Open but Hunter are already often the highest scores of the entire match.