Time to combine Open and Hunter?
- Thread starter Franklink
- Start date
As I recall, for northern cal, southern oregon & nevada shooters we have 2 Open shooters in the GP's generally.
This is hardly a class and with the same two individuals being the only ones. Southern cal has 3 or 4 as I recall but sporadic in making GP's etc ...
Some of the aids such as body harness's ARE NO LONGER MADE which is a major issue. Some shooters use a lap support apparatus which is a custom devise one can not purchase either.
We live in a time where folks just want to buy the stuff they need, if those devises or garments can not be acquired, most won't participate is that game.
* This is why the WFTF class thrives here in the states ... Because they the WFTF does not allow body Harness's or Lap support devices. The downfall for many shooting WFTF is the >12 fpe limit where Open is >20 fpe
Compounding this further ... If one gets into the OPEN FT class and does not have access to these stability aids there is little chance of being competitive against generally the older vet shooters that do ... So this alone is a major deterrent to even try or seriously attempt the open class.
Common sense thoughts here gentlemen.
This is hardly a class and with the same two individuals being the only ones. Southern cal has 3 or 4 as I recall but sporadic in making GP's etc ...
Some of the aids such as body harness's ARE NO LONGER MADE which is a major issue. Some shooters use a lap support apparatus which is a custom devise one can not purchase either.
We live in a time where folks just want to buy the stuff they need, if those devises or garments can not be acquired, most won't participate is that game.
* This is why the WFTF class thrives here in the states ... Because they the WFTF does not allow body Harness's or Lap support devices. The downfall for many shooting WFTF is the >12 fpe limit where Open is >20 fpe
Compounding this further ... If one gets into the OPEN FT class and does not have access to these stability aids there is little chance of being competitive against generally the older vet shooters that do ... So this alone is a major deterrent to even try or seriously attempt the open class.
Common sense thoughts here gentlemen.
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Since I started this discussion we've had the AZ state FT match. And the trend continues.
There were:
15 Hunter class shooters
8 in WFTF
4 in Open
3 in Unlimited/Freestyle
This discussion came up with a few shooters at the match. One comment was made that the Open guys have temporarily jumped to WFTF for the World's being hosted here in AZ in a few months. But looking at the 8 WFTF shooters, Ive only seen 2 of them shoot in Open in local matches in the 7 years I've been involved.
I competed in Hunter, using my $500 scope @ 16x. I missed two shots on day 1....forgot to hold over for my first offhand shot and pulled a stool/sticks shot at 50-52yards. Neither of the two were missed because I misranged them.
Hunter class shooters had the daily overall high score for both days, and the overall highest two-day total score. So Hunter has nothing to fear from being in a class with unlimited scope power, b/c that's how the Open and WFTF guys shot int heir classes.
In the last few days I've started converting my Open rig to be Hunter legal, stripping off the knee rest and the thigh rest and reconfiguring to fit the stool/sticks position better. I've been very hesitant to do this, keeping one foot in Open and one foot in Hunter for the last two years. My hesitation come from hoping something would change for Open participation, and because in my opinion I've not felt right about using a true target gun in Hunter class. BUT, after looking at some of the Hunter rigs at the match just barely, and seeing things like 15" sidewheels, and the types of padded bags attached underneath guns like used in PRS....well, the gloves are coming off and I'm ready to use my target rifle in Hunter class instead of my little truck gun.
For comparison....the gun I've been mostly using for Hunter, next to my target rifle that is headed for Hunter class.
There were:
15 Hunter class shooters
8 in WFTF
4 in Open
3 in Unlimited/Freestyle
This discussion came up with a few shooters at the match. One comment was made that the Open guys have temporarily jumped to WFTF for the World's being hosted here in AZ in a few months. But looking at the 8 WFTF shooters, Ive only seen 2 of them shoot in Open in local matches in the 7 years I've been involved.
I competed in Hunter, using my $500 scope @ 16x. I missed two shots on day 1....forgot to hold over for my first offhand shot and pulled a stool/sticks shot at 50-52yards. Neither of the two were missed because I misranged them.
Hunter class shooters had the daily overall high score for both days, and the overall highest two-day total score. So Hunter has nothing to fear from being in a class with unlimited scope power, b/c that's how the Open and WFTF guys shot int heir classes.
In the last few days I've started converting my Open rig to be Hunter legal, stripping off the knee rest and the thigh rest and reconfiguring to fit the stool/sticks position better. I've been very hesitant to do this, keeping one foot in Open and one foot in Hunter for the last two years. My hesitation come from hoping something would change for Open participation, and because in my opinion I've not felt right about using a true target gun in Hunter class. BUT, after looking at some of the Hunter rigs at the match just barely, and seeing things like 15" sidewheels, and the types of padded bags attached underneath guns like used in PRS....well, the gloves are coming off and I'm ready to use my target rifle in Hunter class instead of my little truck gun.
For comparison....the gun I've been mostly using for Hunter, next to my target rifle that is headed for Hunter class.
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I was talking to a top shooter who started out like most in Hunter PCP.
I asked him what made him switched to WFTF piston.
Quote
"It got too boring shooting my Steyr." He was getting 85% or more each match (closer to 90% or more most matches).
If you Hunter PCP guys ever want a challenge, stop trying to change the game and come over to WFTF piston. I promise, you'll never be bored. Then you'll really experience even with all the "advantages" we have in WFTF...They are really NOT ENOUGH.
LOL
rant over...back to practicing.
--
Not WFTF piston (look ma, no straps) ...but you get the idea...far as I know, not photo shopped either (other than that yellow oval).
This was intended to inspire some to come over to WFTF. But if you are offended, remember it's all in fun. Shoot the way you want (within the current rules). Life's too short to propose or argue about rule changes (unless it's safety related). God bless.
I asked him what made him switched to WFTF piston.
Quote
"It got too boring shooting my Steyr." He was getting 85% or more each match (closer to 90% or more most matches).
If you Hunter PCP guys ever want a challenge, stop trying to change the game and come over to WFTF piston. I promise, you'll never be bored. Then you'll really experience even with all the "advantages" we have in WFTF...They are really NOT ENOUGH.
LOL
rant over...back to practicing.
--
Not WFTF piston (look ma, no straps) ...but you get the idea...far as I know, not photo shopped either (other than that yellow oval).
This was intended to inspire some to come over to WFTF. But if you are offended, remember it's all in fun. Shoot the way you want (within the current rules). Life's too short to propose or argue about rule changes (unless it's safety related). God bless.
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Thus why there should be a ... JUST KNOCK THE DAMN TARGET DOWN Class.
Within established power limits .... anything goes and the challenge one puts on them self is equal amongst all.
Freestyle / Unlimited any one
Within established power limits .... anything goes and the challenge one puts on them self is equal amongst all.
Freestyle / Unlimited any one
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You lost me at piston. I played the springer game in field target for awhile, couple thousand dollars worth actually. Open and Hunter but always less than 12fpe.
Nothing more frustrating than a good wind read, and an accurately ranged target, and everything done right equals a miss because a nose hair was out of place. And the gun needed that one filament of nose hair worth of pressure on the stock to shoot to the same place. Not to mention broken springs and loose stock screws and piston seals failing at the worst possible moment. Oh, and trying to keep a scope from migrating down the rails.
Nah, I'll stick to classes where misses are my fault, not the equipments fault.
As for Hunter class guys trying to change the game....if anything I'd say I'm an Open class guy who no longer has a class to shoot in, so I went to Hunter.
Open is shriveling up and dying. Per the handbook, Open was the place "to advance the state of the art in the sport if field target." The reality is that Hunter has taken over that role, the handbook simply hasn't been updated yet to show the change/make it official. Hunter is rocking and rolling, when participation is the metric.
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We just had our AZ state FT match, as usual Open, Hunter, WFTF, and Unlimited, were neck and neck for high match score. Congrats to Tony for match high score and winning Hunter.
"""Nothing more frustrating than a good wind read, and an accurately ranged target, and everything done right equals a miss because a nose hair was out of place. And the gun needed that one filament of nose hair worth of pressure on the stock to shoot to the same place. Not to mention broken springs and loose stock screws and piston seals failing at the worst possible moment. Oh, and trying to keep a scope from migrating down the rails."""
And I thought pcp's could be frustrating! Franklink, this is exactly why I didn't pursue springer all those years ago even though I won this division at least once at our club.
For sure would rather do WFTF pcp than springer.
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I totally agree.
I call it the WTF how did I miss that shot class.
The beauty of this class is that you are so busy trying to figure out what went wrong that you have ALMOST no time to post on the forum.
Just kidding. it's all in fun
ohhh...haven't consider the nose hair problem (thank you)
So, if any of you ever want to give Springers a second try (even a 3rd, 4th or 5th try).
The secret is persistence and methodical trouble shooting.
And just general pigheadedness as my wife calls it.
"Nothing worth having comes easy." Theodore Roosevelt
I want to say it's one of the greatest experience/satisfaction/reward in the airgun universe when you can hang with a PCP for one target, one lane, or even one match.
But I suspect you already knew that.
I call it the WTF how did I miss that shot class.
The beauty of this class is that you are so busy trying to figure out what went wrong that you have ALMOST no time to post on the forum.
Just kidding. it's all in fun
ohhh...haven't consider the nose hair problem (thank you)
So, if any of you ever want to give Springers a second try (even a 3rd, 4th or 5th try).
The secret is persistence and methodical trouble shooting.
And just general pigheadedness as my wife calls it.
"Nothing worth having comes easy." Theodore Roosevelt
I want to say it's one of the greatest experience/satisfaction/reward in the airgun universe when you can hang with a PCP for one target, one lane, or even one match.
But I suspect you already knew that.
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Sorry to be late to the Open v Hunter debate. There may be an easy way to address all the issues: relax Open rules to allow bucket-and-sticks as per the current Hunter rules. Then folks who like Hunter but want no limits on scope magnification can get that in Open class. Yes, some people will include thigh rests in their bucket seated shots, but so what.
There aren't a lot of shooters in Open these days, so the added numbers ought to be welcome. In fact, it would/will be interesting to see how many people migrate from Hunter to Open with this change.
There aren't a lot of shooters in Open these days, so the added numbers ought to be welcome. In fact, it would/will be interesting to see how many people migrate from Hunter to Open with this change.
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I agree. If i could shoot bucket and styx id shoot open or stay in hunter i don’t mind 16 power with a $500-$600 scope its not bad i just have to have the bucket and Styx or I wouldn’t be able to finish a match. I don’t even put my elbows on my knees and shoot at the top of our club matches.
Me with my wagon
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In answer to your question, Cole, NO.
In the beginning, it was just piston and pcp.
PCP then became an equipment race, with the harness adapted and all the new guys were complaining they could not compete. So, hunter class was established so the guys with the everyday rifles could compete as an entry level class.
Then hunter class became an equipment race.
Then unlimited was tried as an entry level class to get folks involved. That got shot down after trying it for one year in AAFTA. That was 2017.
Not sure why Open class is having a decline, other than not being able to find/buy harnesses that duplicate the Price harness. I am guessing that some guys (all of us are getting older) cannot get into position to shoot open class, so they gravitate to hunter class. I am 73 years old, and still shoot open class......with a piston gun......at sub-12 fpe. Why? I enjoy it. I compete against what I feel I am capable of attaining. For me it is that "challenge", and I have fun doing that.
Combining classes isn't neccesary. I have the feeling that some, if not most, of those shooting WFTF this year, because Worlds is in the U.S., may be switching back to open class after all is said and done. Who knows.
Just be happy shooting what you are shooting and appreciate the fact that you have the ability to switch from open to hunter to wftf and back again, if the mood so strikes you.
that is just my two cents. Your mileage may vary. whatever trips your trigger.
In the beginning, it was just piston and pcp.
PCP then became an equipment race, with the harness adapted and all the new guys were complaining they could not compete. So, hunter class was established so the guys with the everyday rifles could compete as an entry level class.
Then hunter class became an equipment race.
Then unlimited was tried as an entry level class to get folks involved. That got shot down after trying it for one year in AAFTA. That was 2017.
Not sure why Open class is having a decline, other than not being able to find/buy harnesses that duplicate the Price harness. I am guessing that some guys (all of us are getting older) cannot get into position to shoot open class, so they gravitate to hunter class. I am 73 years old, and still shoot open class......with a piston gun......at sub-12 fpe. Why? I enjoy it. I compete against what I feel I am capable of attaining. For me it is that "challenge", and I have fun doing that.
Combining classes isn't neccesary. I have the feeling that some, if not most, of those shooting WFTF this year, because Worlds is in the U.S., may be switching back to open class after all is said and done. Who knows.
Just be happy shooting what you are shooting and appreciate the fact that you have the ability to switch from open to hunter to wftf and back again, if the mood so strikes you.
that is just my two cents. Your mileage may vary. whatever trips your trigger.
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Don't mess around with someone elses division. It's only going to piss someone off.
This is a geriatric shooting disipline and we're all way too fussy.
Frankly I think we shiould allow laser rangefinders in the sport and cut back the shooting time.
This is a geriatric shooting disipline and we're all way too fussy.
Frankly I think we shiould allow laser rangefinders in the sport and cut back the shooting time.
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@humbled, (and others)
Commenting over here to not go off on a tangent on the nationals registration discussion.
For others who didn't see it there, they shared the sign up sheet for this year's nationals, and there are 3 (THREE) Open class shooters. Granted there will likely be a couple more stragglers, but to put this into perspective they have 18 piston shooters. By my math they have 6x more piston shooters than Open class shooters. At Nationals.
I've seen the argument posed by a few different people that some of the usually Open class guys are WFTF'ing temporarily. From the probably 50ish field target shooters that I see at the 3-4ish clubs I attend matches, there are more usually-Hunter guys in WFTF for the World's right now than Open regulars. Ie, Open class numbers aren't going to change much when Worlds has come and gone.
There's lots of ways to word this to accomplish the same thing. Many have been discussed here. Would be interesting and telling to see a larger poll than I was able to do, with the question being something along the lines of what's been discussed here. (Either making bumbag/harness and stool/sticks the same class and/or doing away with the 16x restriction).
Commenting over here to not go off on a tangent on the nationals registration discussion.
For others who didn't see it there, they shared the sign up sheet for this year's nationals, and there are 3 (THREE) Open class shooters. Granted there will likely be a couple more stragglers, but to put this into perspective they have 18 piston shooters. By my math they have 6x more piston shooters than Open class shooters. At Nationals.
I've seen the argument posed by a few different people that some of the usually Open class guys are WFTF'ing temporarily. From the probably 50ish field target shooters that I see at the 3-4ish clubs I attend matches, there are more usually-Hunter guys in WFTF for the World's right now than Open regulars. Ie, Open class numbers aren't going to change much when Worlds has come and gone.
There's lots of ways to word this to accomplish the same thing. Many have been discussed here. Would be interesting and telling to see a larger poll than I was able to do, with the question being something along the lines of what's been discussed here. (Either making bumbag/harness and stool/sticks the same class and/or doing away with the 16x restriction).
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