Resources Tirrell/Thomas Death Star

[Joef]

Wow I can not believe how ignorant some of you are. So you actually believe that every real BR competitor shoots off all these contraptions, little do you know that is not the case, pretty ignorant to make a statement like that. If you want to see contraptions and bling look no further than RMAC and EBR competitors.

You actually think we all shoot Thomas rifles with a push button actuated contraptions, Laughable. You have all the Big 3 rifles and then some all shooting off of sandbags, bipods, front rest and dependent what discipline or class your shooting one piece rests are allowed but they are far and in between with the air rifles. No different than what is seen at the two big events except for a one piece is allowed in N50.

What the main difference is we are sanctioned clubs that compete for Aggregate scores which consist of 3 card matches. Some disciplines in smallbore will shoot 6 cards.

CC shot here and knows but acts like he doesn't get it, he has seen what others have shot here which is the same at other ranges.

This is the reason why these two events are called a one card pony show. No dis-respect just is what it is.

Joe

 

[Franklink]

Wow I can not believe how ignorant some of you are. So you actually believe that every real BR competitor shoots off all these contraptions, little do you know that is not the case, pretty ignorant to make a statement like that. If you want to see contraptions and bling look no further than RMAC and EBR competitors.

You actually think we all shoot Thomas rifles with a push button actuated contraptions, Laughable. You have all the Big 3 rifles and then some all shooting off of sandbags, bipods, front rest and dependent what discipline or class your shooting one piece rests are allowed but they are far and in between with the air rifles. No different than what is seen at the two big events except for a one piece is allowed in N50.

What the main difference is we are sanctioned clubs that compete for Aggregate scores which consist of 3 card matches. Some disciplines in smallbore will shoot 6 cards.

CC shot here and knows but acts like he doesn't get it, he has seen what others have shot here which is the same at other ranges.

This is the reason why these two events are called a one card pony show. No dis-respect just is what it is.

Joe

I haven't seen where anybody says they believe that "every real BR competitor shoots off all these contraptions" or that somebody "think(s) we all shoot Thomas rifles with a push button (trigger)."


Of course there is a variety of guns being used, but the fact that the pinnacle of benchrest performance is a push button Thomas being shot off returning rail-guided sleds is quite telling.

As Mike said, it's not for everybody, just like the big comps aren't for BR purists. And BR purists seems to be a VERY small minority. There was a big squabble earlier this week about not enough spots at EBR for everybody interested in competing. I'm not sure that's the case with "real" benchrest.

No disrespect, just is what it is.

 

[cavedweller]

It’s time to call a spade a spade.

Only if the pellets strike the center of the spade

 

[cavedweller]

God did bless them, because they’re happy! If I can’t “hold” the gun I have zero interest. Real benchrest whatever… many are not looking to send from a fixed artillery piece. That’s why it is such a niche endeavor/sport. I want to hold my baby shooter.

My accuracy depends on holding my tongue against a particular tooth while sitting on a particular chair while wearing my lucky shirt and hat - with those in place I’m not beatable

 

[nomojo65]

I have an Idea?, if EBR, RMAC, NAC, PAcup type shoots attract the more traditional “hold on/be part of the gun” style. ( that is the predominant style according to the number of shooters that register, correct! )Then to me the smart style of shooting would be a F-TR or F-class style, laying prone shooting from a bipod and rear bag or any combination (some use front rests even) depending on the classes. They shoot ultra long distances 1000yds plus which truly equates to 100yd plus for airguns. No need to bring your own flags there would be permanent “SPECIFIC RANGE” flags for everyone to use for all qualifiers, finals etc. “no excuses”. Also no benches required. You could have pellet classes and a ULTRA long range slug class!

Now this is really cool, since there seems to be a greater presence of teams or even pairs you can use spotters for calling misses or for wind corrections. Let’s face it there is already competitor’s using spotting scopes to watch others target scores as they are being shot!

Do some research, trust me it won’t be long before an event sponsor will adopt this category of shooting, NAC seems to be the perfect event for this. And when this style is adopted for any event it will leave shooting from a “BENCH” in the dust! Maybe I should get paid for my idea

Remember you heard it here first! And I will take credit for this. Your welcome!

Now the hold on to my gun purist leave us fanatic true BENCHREST guy’s to ourselves…

And yes, I would try this style of shooting at anyone of these events, I mean it is my Idea!

 

[nomojo65]

To get ahead of this discipline I propose to the Airgun Nation forum Moderator to add F-class or equivalent style of prone LONG RANGE class nomenclature to this discipline section of the forum. Again you’re welcome!

 

[Centercut]

No dis-respect Mike, and apologize if it bothered you. I get upset with issues just like others do and vented, you just happened to be in the crosshairs.

Thank you.

 

[thomasair]

Im gonna keep shooting my electronic trigger because it completely destroys the confidence of all the part time shooters that don’t understand BR or the equipment. I thoroughly enjoy that guys think it’s an absolutely required element to win….along with the one piece rest and whatever else. What could be better than your competition being mentally defeated before the match begins. That’s great. A real BR shooter doesn’t care. The N50 pellet class at nationals has been won each time so far by a mechanical Thomas shot off a 2 piece.

N50 will probably never have to turn shooters away. As I said in the first post….very few guys even understand real BR. The pretendresters that try it get destroyed and don’t come back. They reason away the defeat by crying foul over equipment then say their equipment is just as good as what they got beaten by in other circles so they can prop up their choice of gun or their sponsor. It’s a defense mechanism for the far less determined. It’s been going on forever. It won’t change. If you’re a big deal at 100y, but get trounced at 50…that should turn on a light bulb above your head. The big pretendrest matches are now taking registration measures to keep out as many of the guys that don’t shoot their brand…so it’s all going down the predictable path. We will just smile and wave.

Mike

 

[JimNM]

Just my humble opinion:
I think the heat is getting to your minds.
Y'ALL NEED TO GO SHOOT SOMETHING!

 

[thomasair]

You know me Jim. Not a day goes by that I’m not shooting and trying to improve myself and the platform. Just tired of all the make believe manufacturer benchrest.

 

[beerthief]

i agree with Franklink #40 post . two different mind set , and i can see both as being true in there belief's .

I wonder if any of the hands off guys ever shoot the other guys rig ? "hey would you mind if i try your rig ?"

 

[thomasair]

Everyone that shoots free recoil has shot off bags while hanging on to the gun at one time or another. That’s how most start out. When I started out I shot off a block of wood and a rear squeeze bag from Walmart. I shot a lot of 248s and 249s with occasional 250s. I asked somebody how many points I could expect to gain from a real front rest and he told me a couple easily. I took the time and built a nice front rest and bought a good rear bag. I was astonished that my average did not improve in any measurable way….but it sure was a hell of a lot easier to shoot a card. One piece rests are another step up in luxury. It’s like driving a car with adaptive cruise control on a long trip. After doing so, you are not likely to be happy without it. Of course nobody but but a BR shooter will believe this, but it’s the truth.

Mike

 

[shotgunjack]

You know me Jim. Not a day goes by that I’m not shooting and trying to improve myself and the platform. Just tired of all the make believe manufacturer benchrest.

I can attest to that after spending a week at his place. Just look at the "IMPACT" berm...

 

[JimNM]

You know me Jim. Not a day goes by that I’m not shooting and trying to improve myself and the platform. Just tired of all the make believe manufacturer benchrest.

Was more tongue in cheek than actual advice, Mike.

Those that know, just know.

Those that feel left out, throw stones or cry foul.

 

[Shadowalker]

And theirin lies the rub as to why benchrest purists and shooters don't see eye to eye.

A benchrest purist sees a push button actuated hole making contraption on sleds as a better chance to make 25 perfectly placed little holes.

Whereas those of use that enjoy actually holding the gun, see the mastery of those things that make us human as part of the challenge, and therefore the fun. From the stance that the human is an integral part of the equation, a pellet launching contraption on sleds is an abomination to all that shooting competitions represent.

And I've seen @thomasair say something along those lines elsewhere, that pure benchrest is a test of equipment. So I don't say the above to be inflammatory, but rather to illustrate the profound difference between the two mindsets.

Gentlemen, I have seen this discussion in CF. RF and now Airgun all of which I have participated in as a serious competitor for over 50 yrs.
You people are hell bent on killing the horse you ride
. What you fail to understand are we that seek the Grail and design, build and shoot these Deathstar guns are your testing facility. We find out what really works and does not as we now have built a gun that has the fewest possible flaws in design and building as knowledge permits. The information derived from shooting such a Deathstar rig within a controlled atmosphere provides more accurate info in one day than 4 years of your outside pellet flinging in the wind. They define cause and effect..
So they are perfectionists. They have to be to provide valid facts. Be thankful they exist. They are providing you with the most accurate information available in your chosen sport and your complaining?
No company does this for you. These guns have their own competition and are no threat to you..They advance the sport.... I said this years ago as I migrated from rimfire benchrest to Airguns and those within this sport were complaining because I arrived.."If smart you will adopt these benchrest methods and findings or get beat by those that do". Without MIKE in your sport you would be both flat lined in knowledge and progress. Look how stagnant the sport was before his brain fart and benchrest shooters entered into this sport. World records have been broken and set. The Internation target never shot clean in 40 years of European competition was shattered in the Carolinas. This is called progress and makes manufactures to start paying attention to detail.
This single man has done more to advance this sport than any man or company in over 50 years. Pay respect and be greatful for the gift.

 

[nomojo65]

Amen to all that was stated in that last response, shadowalker is the man!

 

[thomasair]

Nice to say, Frank. Thanks

Here’s a neat pic from the world championships going on right now.

Irish shooter Maurice Hassard wins HV and sets new world record.

Maurice understands BR.

 

[RScott]

Guns of the Deathstar type which I built enabled me to take this gun/ machine inside in a controlled environment and truly evaluate and debunk a number of accuracy theorys to include pellets, bedding material, shooting style, triggers, telescopes, rests, repeatability, actions, tuners, muzzle breaks, barrel tension, air pressure, seating depth and barrels. Once these items of speculation are resolved with positive visual data one can go to war knowing it's with the best equipment available.
You simply can't hold off .065 with a gun that shoots .124 no matter how well you read the wind.

Frank,
Have you published your findings of these evaluations? I'm still a neophyte seeking my first 250 card at 25m HV benchrest and am trying to eliminate the causes of variations. Would love to learn from your experience. And I agree that the work you and Mike N put into seeking perfection can help all of us.

 

[Shadowalker]

Frank,
Have you published your findings of these evaluations? I'm still a neophyte seeking my first 250 card at 25m HV benchrest and am trying to eliminate the causes of variations. Would love to learn from your experience. And I agree that the work you and Mike N put into seeking perfection can help all of us.

Nope, I am out of this game. I spent more time arguing with people on subjects they did not understand as Technical Advisor for Small Caliber News and Precision Shooting than enlightning. You can't fix stupid.
Mike is the Holy Grail of this sport you have no idea how smart he truly is. Without him you all would be shooting 247 and happy. I know where there is a Thomas that I personally watched a fellow friend indoors at 25 yds with a .177 shoot 3 consecutive 25 by 25X targets.

 

[thomasair]

Nice to say, again Frank. It should be understood than any intelligence or tenacity I possess is God given, so I can take no credit for them. I’m incredibly happy to be able to use what I’ve been given to do something I love and take care of my family adequately.

Here’s a pic of one of Maurice’s cards shot at worlds. It’s eerily similar to his very first ever outdoor air rifle card he shot at my house when he picked up his gun. He already knew how to read wind like a World Rimfire Champion.