Tough squirrel, 177 pellet or poor shot placement?

[JimD]

I think there is a certain randomness to the way squirrels react to being shot. Maybe, as has been suggested, it matters if they are relaxed or not. I hit one with my P35-25 in the front of the head in front of the eye and it was DRT. Definitely was not a brain shot but it was still DRT (skull was crushed). I hit another half an inch or so behind the shoulder and it went maybe 3 feet and dropped. Again with the P35-25. I think that shot was at best borderline too far back. But still the squirrel died very quickly. The one that I mention in this thread took a 177 pellet to the throat. Slashed major veins and/or arteries but still survived a minute or so. Climbed a little on three legs. I think that is just a different reaction than the two I mention with the 25 caliber P35. I don't think the 177 squirrel was hit worse, I think it was more determined to get away and the hole in it was not as large because it was made by a 177 pellet.

But when we do not hit the brain or spine we are depending on the animal to bleed enough to stop it. Hitting it well is part of that but how big a hole we make is part of it too, I think. A 25 caliber pellet has about twice the cross sectional area as a 177 pellet. A 22 is about halfway in-between. I don't think making a smaller hole helps the squirrel bleed out quickly. Usually I've seen squirrels react to neck shots like brain shots. Including doing the "dance". But when I hit this one in the throat, it was more like a body shot through the lungs that didn't hit the heart. It had to bleed enough for the brain to shut down. I just don't think the 177 does that as well as the bigger calibers, especially the 25 (never used anything bigger).

I am not trying to put down or criticize the 177. But I think it is questionable to put squirrels down quickly with what could be called "body shots". Shots that kill by the animal bleeding enough to shut down. It works but just not as quickly as a bigger caliber would. In my yard I worry about them moving to my neighbors yard and I think I got lucky yesterday. I think I need to limit my 177 to brain shots for backyard duty. I also hunt public property, however, and I wouldn't be worried about a 177 body shot there. I also decided to avoid front of chest shots with my bigger airguns in my yard after having two of two hit with the 25 run a significant distance with a 25 caliber hole through them lengthwise. It's another killing shot and I would consider it a humane shot but it is not a good anchoring shot. I would put 177 body shots in the same category. Humane and kill shots but not anchoring shots.

 

[450BM]

I think alot of it has to do with how relaxed the game is before the shot. Just like deer, when they're not on edge they tend to go DRT with a vital shot. Bucks tend to run because they're typically on edge during a rut.

This is very true. I shot a calm feeding buck from 75 yards with a 185gr hp from my S&W M29 44mag. I hit him in the lungs and he crumpled, DRT. Bullet was just under the skin on the opposite side. Many others, having been pushed by other hunters, I’ve hit with .308 or 270 and they were everything but DRT.

I’ve never shot squirrels in the back yard or around bird feeders but I’d imagine they’re a little more on edge in those locations. Especially if dogs or kids (or someone shooting at them I suppose) are around. Out in the woods they are pretty calm unless you’re your moving and tree them. On the ground they seem to die pretty quick, in a tree and excited they do seem to be harder to bring down at times.

 

[450BM]

@qball;

Exactly because an animal/squirrel can take a shot to the head (face for example) with a .177 and not die because of poor shot placement. I'm sorry to say this because it happens and to me as well, being honest I have to tell it all. "headshots should be called brain shots".

Yes, and a larger caliber will have more margin of error. A LC pellet is not going to slow down as fast (on the way and when it makes contact) and will do more damage on it’s way through. Personally, I won’t use my .177 air rifles for squirrels, I have too many better choices. If I had one setup to shot slugs fast and was as accurate as my .25 , then yes, I’d use that .177 for squirrels.

 

[intenseaty22]

I think there is a certain randomness to the way squirrels react to being shot. Maybe, as has been suggested, it matters if they are relaxed or not. I hit one with my P35-25 in the front of the head in front of the eye and it was DRT. Definitely was not a brain shot but it was still DRT (skull was crushed). I hit another half an inch or so behind the shoulder and it went maybe 3 feet and dropped. Again with the P35-25. I think that shot was at best borderline too far back. But still the squirrel died very quickly. The one that I mention in this thread took a 177 pellet to the throat. Slashed major veins and/or arteries but still survived a minute or so. Climbed a little on three legs. I think that is just a different reaction than the two I mention with the 25 caliber P35. I don't think the 177 squirrel was hit worse, I think it was more determined to get away and the hole in it was not as large because it was made by a 177 pellet.

But when we do not hit the brain or spine we are depending on the animal to bleed enough to stop it. Hitting it well is part of that but how big a hole we make is part of it too, I think. A 25 caliber pellet has about twice the cross sectional area as a 177 pellet. A 22 is about halfway in-between. I don't think making a smaller hole helps the squirrel bleed out quickly. Usually I've seen squirrels react to neck shots like brain shots. Including doing the "dance". But when I hit this one in the throat, it was more like a body shot through the lungs that didn't hit the heart. It had to bleed enough for the brain to shut down. I just don't think the 177 does that as well as the bigger calibers, especially the 25 (never used anything bigger).

I am not trying to put down or criticize the 177. But I think it is questionable to put squirrels down quickly with what could be called "body shots". Shots that kill by the animal bleeding enough to shut down. It works but just not as quickly as a bigger caliber would. In my yard I worry about them moving to my neighbors yard and I think I got lucky yesterday. I think I need to limit my 177 to brain shots for backyard duty. I also hunt public property, however, and I wouldn't be worried about a 177 body shot there. I also decided to avoid front of chest shots with my bigger airguns in my yard after having two of two hit with the 25 run a significant distance with a 25 caliber hole through them lengthwise. It's another killing shot and I would consider it a humane shot but it is not a good anchoring shot. I would put 177 body shots in the same category. Humane and kill shots but not anchoring shots.

I have extensively posted about shots to the VITALS and have plenty of experience shooting squirrels with a .177 pellet. The fact is that it’s not at all about bleeding to death. A .177 pellet is a relatively large piece of lead when you consider the size of the animal. A quick dispatch depends on abruptly stopping oxygen to the brain, period. If you hit both lungs with a pellet, easily achievable with sub 12fpe .177, you have an instant bilateral pneumothorax. Oxygen will almost immediately stop reaching the brain and it’s over.

If they linger too long, it wasn’t a good shot. I have had to shoot a few a couple times or more and that was using a .22 at 32fpe + It’s about shot placement. A shot to the spne in the wrong place will only render the animal paralyzed from that point down, easily able to sustain life while suffering. Even a badly placed brain shot can result in a prolonged death.

 

[Dr. Kralenstein]

Let's all agree that if we just use hand grenades and claymores they would ALL be dead right there... and there... and some over there...

 

[qball]

I have extensively posted about shots to the VITALS and have plenty of experience shooting squirrels with a .177 pellet. The fact is that it’s not at all about bleeding to death. A .177 pellet is a relatively large piece of lead when you consider the size of the animal. A quick dispatch depends on abruptly stopping oxygen to the brain, period. If you hit both lungs with a pellet, easily achievable with sub 12fpe .177, you have an instant bilateral pneumothorax. Oxygen will almost immediately stop reaching the brain and it’s over.

If they linger too long, it wasn’t a good shot. I have had to shoot a few a couple times or more and that was using a .22 at 32fpe + It’s about shot placement. A shot to the spne in the wrong place will only render the animal paralyzed from that point down, easily able to sustain life while suffering. Even a badly placed brain shot can result in a prolonged death.

that!!!

My backyard squirrel sniper is 10 FPE 177 cal! Only have 35 yards max but zero issues dropping them within 10 feet on vital shots with 90% pellet retention under the skin, very safe and spooky quiet….minus the sound of the pellet hitting the squirrel.

 

[N2 Shooter]

Hey @JimD What kind of pellet were you using? I ask this because you're particular scenario, of making a lethal shot but the shot not having the knockdown power to disable the game while it succumbs to blood loss is the kind of shots that interest me the most.

 

[JimD]

I have only used domed pellets to take squirrels, so far. My 177 likes 10.65 grain Baracuda pellets best so that is what I was using. (I have used Crosman HPs in my Prod but they do not expand at it's velocity so I consider them to be effectively domed pellets) An expanding 177 would have made a bigger hole and, perhaps, dropped the subject squirrel quicker but I doubt I will ever use an expanding 177 pellet. My P35-177 shoots the 10.6 grain pellets at about 900 fps so it is fairly powerful for a 177. But it's penetration in wet paper is only a little better than my Prod which I use as my "minimum acceptable" standard. Switching it to an expanding pellet would reduce penetration and I don't think it would then penetrate well enough for me to use it.

My P35-22 has plenty of penetration margin, however, and I'm thinking of using some metal mags in it to take a few squirrels. I have shot enough with Crosmans and H&N FTTs with my Prod to know a well placed 22 pellet takes squirrels cleanly but I think the little Prod works better now that I tuned it up to 18 fpe. The P35 is over 30, however, and penetrates very well with the 21 grain Baracuda Match it likes. So it should still have plenty of penetration with the metal mags. This is how I think expanding pellets (or slugs) should be used. They should be used in guns with enough power that even with the expansion they still penetrate well enough that a hit to the shoulder will still result in penetration through the lungs.

I don't believe in "energy dump". Anyone that does should read the Alphabet org report on handgun round effectiveness. The velocity of handguns and air rifles is pretty similar so I think their data is useful. They conclusively state there is no such thing as stopping power. You have to hit the central nervous system to shut the target down or you have to deprive the target of oxygen to the brain. But they also state there is a wide range of psycological reactions to being shot with some targets quitting much easier than others. I think that's what we see in animals sometimes.

I like double lung shots and brain shots too. I take more squirrels with brain shots than with body shots. But it can be challenging to see the exact body position of a squirrel 20, 30, or more feet up a tree sometimes in less than full light. I hit the 4th squirrel with my 177 in the shoulder, for instance. But it's body position was such that the pellet went up it's neck and through it's skull. It dropped immediately. But from the ground I thought it looked like I was taking a double lung shot. If I turned the scope up I might have been able to tell but it might have run off while I was messing with the scope too. It's been a couple years and several dozen squirrels since I lost one so I don't think I am taking what I would call bad shots. But with the uncertainties of the exact orientation of the squirrel, not just when I squeeze the trigger but when the pellet arrives, I want to have a little more than a minimum gun/load. That is working fairly well for me.