Tuxing oil water separator desiccant container imploded. What went wrong?

[leeboysf]

Hi guys,

Well, this happened today:

Below is my pump setup:

Everything you see in this picture are pretty much new. It was only the second time directly filling the gun when the implosion happened.

Here is the sequence of of what I did right before I heard a pop inside the Tuxing tube.

1. Hooked everything up, started water pump, and started Yong Heng pump.

2. Charged FX Dream pup air cylinder pressure from 140 to 225 bar.

3. Turned off the Yong Heng pump.

4. Opened the pressure release valve on Yong Heng pump. I didn’t watch the pressure gauge, but line pressure was apparently coming down slowly which I didn’t know. I must not have open the valve wide enough.

5. Disconnected the black filter housing (hose directly coming out of Yong Heng) from Tuxing Separator. There was a loud pressure escaping sound, and heard quiet pop inside the Tuxing pipe. 

Opened up the Tuxing separator and saw that active charcoals closest to the Yong Heng pump end were compressed and caked up towards the opening (side where I disconnected the black filter housing from Tuxing).

I am wondering if active charcoals got wet and blocked the opening, and that caused something funny with the pressure difference when I disconnected the pressured line.

What went wrong here? Is disconnecting pressurized line a big no no? I’m still learning...

Question?

How can I prevent this from happening again? Simply make sure to release the line pressure before disconnecting?

Rebuild:

1. For better moisture control, I would like to add silica filter on the intake side of the Yong Zheng pump.

2. For Tuxing internal, I saw others create desiccant container pipe out of 1” PVC pipe with molecular sieve blocked off by cotton filter. I hear silica performs better than molecular sieve when the humidity is over 20%. I am thinking about doing half silica and half molecular sieve.

3. I am considering adding another Tuxing separator that only contains the cotton filter to make sure that I have a full control of the moisture build up.

PCP money pit sink hole is keep sucking in my money...

 

[airgunfans]

It seems that compressed air has made its way into the gap between the inner plastic tube and the outer metal tube of the gold filter. As long as the pressure inside the plastic tube is equal to that in the gap, there will be no net force acting on the wall of the inner tube so no problem. When you quickly de-pressurized the inner tube, there was not enough time for the compressed air in the gap to escape through small leaks at the ends so the net force created by the pressure difference crushed the wall of the inner tube.

I would suggest you to consider putting molecular sieve directly into the gold tube and plug up both ends with cotton filters. There has been claim that molecular sieve will release acid that attack metal but I have not seen such problem in my set up which has been used for about a year.

There is really no need to dry the air at the intake of the compressor or add another stage of gold filter to hold additional cotton. The moisture trap of the Yong Heng has already remove quite a lot of liquid water. After the additional filtering by the cotton in the small black filter and the desiccant in the big gold filter, the air is dry enough for our toys. You can check by feeling how wet the cotton in the small black filter is after fill your rifle, it's just slightly damp. What I have been doing is to replace that piece of cotton with a dry one after 3 fills . That taken out can be put aside and left to dry out by itself before reusing it the next time. The cotton need be tossed only if it has soaked up too much oil. 

 

[gadballs9]

Honestly? Go buy one from Joe Brancato. You will no longer be sending $$$$$ down the Chinese-made rathole. Stories like this reinforce the fact that HP air is not to be jacked with.

 

[ImpactX]

Honestly? Go buy one from Joe Brancato. You will no longer be sending $$$$$ down the Chinese-made rathole. Stories like this reinforce the fact that HP air is not to be jacked with.

Yong Heng is $240 on eBay. Why would anyone go buy his $400 filter for a $240 compressor? Don't need to waste $400 on a filter. The gold filter works just fine. I have one on my hatsan lighting. I fill with blue dessicant beads that turn pink when it's wet. Still blue as ever. $70 on a gold filter vs Joe's overprice $400. I know which one I'd choose.

 

[Bluecup]

Where is the stuff Joe B. sells made?

 

[leeboysf]

It seems that compressed air has made its way into the gap between the inner plastic tube and the outer metal tube of the gold filter. As long as the pressure inside the plastic tube is equal to that in the gap, there will be no net force acting on the wall of the inner tube so no problem. When you quickly de-pressurized the inner tube, there was not enough time for the compressed air in the gap to escape through small leaks at the ends so the net force created by the pressure difference crushed the wall of the inner tube.

I would suggest you to consider putting molecular sieve directly into the gold tube and plug up both ends with cotton filters. There has been claim that molecular sieve will release acid that attack metal but I have not seen such problem in my set up which has been used for about a year.

There is really no need to dry the air at the intake of the compressor or add another stage of gold filter to hold additional cotton. The moisture trap of the Yong Heng has already remove quite a lot of liquid water. After the additional filtering by the cotton in the small black filter and the desiccant in the big gold filter, the air is dry enough for our toys. You can check by feeling how wet the cotton in the small black filter is after fill your rifle, it's just slightly damp. What I have been doing is to replace that piece of cotton with a dry one after 3 fills . That taken out can be put aside and left to dry out by itself before reusing it the next time. The cotton need be tossed only if it has soaked up too much oil.

Good point! Pressure difference in a short time period is definitely what did it, but I think active charcoal getting wet, and caking up the opening created that pressure difference even worse. Active charcoal is the first desiccant that meets the pressured air coming from the pump. Maybe active charcoal should be placed in the middle or at the end...

 

[Brian10956]

One thing that I see is the tube with the container in it is on its side it should be upright so any water will pool in the bottom to be blown out when you open the bleed valve. 

What could of happened is a small amount of water was between the media cartridges and the pressure housing and under pressure the water broke the plastic. You need to know that gases like air can be compressed liquids like water can’t be compressed and they will go to the path of least resistance which is the plastic.

what I’m thinking is just a possibility but the science is factual.

 

[Humdinger]

This failure was more the fault of using a compressor which has a totally inadequate water separator. Yong Heng type compressors omit a moisture tower which all high pressure compressors should have. 

You can add a water separator like this one to remove 99% of the moisture your Yong Heng is passing along to the gold filter. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/30Mpa-Water-Oil-Separator-Air-Filter-For-PCP-Compressor-Pump-Scuba-Diving-300BAR/202279917684?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D58e1afaefb334fa9b9b104b44e7e1937%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D352657345136%26itm%3D202279917684&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Aa4bc1a7a-7cb0-11e9-a3d1-74dbd1801b17%7Cparentrq%3Ae06c931316a0a9ca2a533bbdffb28d58%7Ciid%3A1

As others have said in this thread, the pressure differential caused by moisture and wet charcoal blocking the exit hole and the rapid release of pressure caused the implosion. The only other possibility is operator error by failing to open the moisture bleed on a frequent basis.

You can replace that cartridge for $20 online from the same supplier that sells the Tuxing filter. Just buying a $400 Brancato filter for your $300 compressor will not solve your problem. You will be quickly oversaturating Brancato's cartridges just as fast as you saturated the Tuxing cartridge. The cheaply made compressor or failure to bleed moisture caused this problem, not your filter design.

All quality designed compressors include built in water separator tower to remove practically all of the moisture before it reaches whatever brand high pressure filter. Filters are expected to catch the remaiining 1%. Videos of well designed compressors show moisture bleeds blowing out lots of water vapor. That is the water separator tower doing it's job. Air Venturi's, Hatsan Lightnings, Alpha Carettes, Coltris, Daystates, Nardi's, Bauers, and Alkins, all have them. Yong Hengs and other $300 and under economy compressors do not because they omit this essential feature in their design.

I use the same filter that imploded in your system in my Daystate LC-110. After 5 hours of runtime the Tuxing cartridge is still dry as a bone. The water separator does the majority of the moisture removal. You will saturate a Brancato filter as fast as you saturated the Tuxing. It's simple physics, There is nothing unique about Brancato filters.

 

[leeboysf]

Honestly? Go buy one from Joe Brancato. You will no longer be sending $$$$$ down the Chinese-made rathole. Stories like this reinforce the fact that HP air is not to be jacked with.

This failure was more the fault of using a compressor which has a totally inadequate water separator. Yong Heng type compressors omit a moisture tower which all high pressure compressors should have. 

You can add one like this which catches 98% of the moisture you are sending to the gold filter. https://www.ebay.com/itm/30Mpa-Water-Oil-Separator-Air-Filter-For-PCP-Compressor-Pump-Scuba-Diving-300BAR/202279917684?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D58e1afaefb334fa9b9b104b44e7e1937%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D352657345136%26itm%3D202279917684&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Aa4bc1a7a-7cb0-11e9-a3d1-74dbd1801b17%7Cparentrq%3Ae06c931316a0a9ca2a533bbdffb28d58%7Ciid%3A1

As others have said in this thread, the pressure differential caused by moisture and wet charcoal blocking the exit hole combined with the rapid release of pressure caused the pressure differential that imploded the cartridge.

You can replace the ruinded cartridge for $20 online from the same supplier that sold the Tuxing filter. However, buying a $400 filter Joe Brancato to connect to a $300 compressor will not solve your problem by itself. You will be quickly oversaturating Brancato's $40 cartridges just as fast as you saturated the Tuxing cartridge. The cheaply made compressor caused this failure, not your filter. 

All quality designed compressors includes a water separator tower to remove most of the moisture before it reaches the filter. They are designed to catch the remaiining 1%. When you watch videos showing the moisture bleeds blowing out streams of water vapor, that is the water separator tower doing it's job. Air Venturi's, Hatsan Lightnings, Alpha Carettes, Coltris, Daystates, Nardi's, Bauers, and Alkins, all have them. Yong Hengs and other $300 and under economy compressors do not.

I use the same filter that imploded in your system in my Daystate LC-110. After 5 hours of runtime the Tuxing cartridge is still dry as a bone. The water separator does the majority of the moisture removal. You will saturate a Brancato filter as fast as you saturated the Tuxing. It's simple physics, There is nothing unique about Brancato filters.

YES! This was the answer I was looking for! Thank you for sharing your insight with this newbie!

I did see that water separator before, but I didn’t quite understand how it is used. Water separator in your link seems to be a better solution than my plan of adding an intake desiccant filter for the pump, and an additional Tuxing filter tube.

I only ran the pump for 30 seconds to fill the gun directly, so I am not sure bleeding frequently would have helped.

For repairing the Tuxing tube, I am leaning towards creating a PVC pipe filled with molecular sieve. 

Thanks again!

 

[leeboysf]

One thing that I see is the tube with the container in it is on its side it should be upright so any water will pool in the bottom to be blown out when you open the bleed valve. 

What could of happened is a small amount of water was between the media cartridges and the pressure housing and under pressure the water broke the plastic. You need to know that gases like air can be compressed liquids like water can’t be compressed and they will go to the path of least resistance which is the plastic.

what I’m thinking is just a possibility but the science is factual.

Thanks for the input. I was actually holding the Tuxing tube vertically with my hand when the implosion happened. 

Once I figure all this out, I plan to get a tray cart with wheels and set everything up in there. 

 

[lennyk]

I use the smaller black filter before the gold one with sieve material.

i use the fiber filter material in the black, it traps most of the moisture and oil before reaching the gold filter.

 

[leeboysf]

I use the smaller black filter before the gold one with sieve material.

i use the fiber filter material in the black, it traps most of the moisture and oil before reaching the gold filter.

My setup is exactly like that. If you look at the second picture of my setup I have the small black filter hooked up to the gold filter. 

 

[airgunfans]

Water separator in your link seems to be a better solution .... I only ran the pump for 30 seconds to fill the gun directly

That kind of big water separator can hold a much larger amount of water and is needed only if you run the compressor for a long period of time. Your Yong Heng is equipped with a water separators of the same kind at the outlet of the first stage . The only difference is that it is smaller. The longer rectangular block with bleed valves on it is the water separators.

I also fill my rifle directly and it takes about 3 minutes to get the pressure in the rifle and the gold filter from zero to 4500 psi. Upon bleeding the water separator of the first stage, only a little water comes out and there is none at the second stage so they are doing their job. Adding another big one at the output of the compressor is totally not needed.

Charcoal is mainly used for removing poisonous substance and is needed only when you want to produce breathable air. For moisture removal, they are not as effective as molecular sieve so you just need the latter in the gold filter. 

Regarding silica gel, they can hold more water but I have come across articles saying that they do not remove water as quickly as molecular sieve. You may want to check out relevant articles in the internet. I use silica gel in my gold filter as indicator only. The beads are only placed at the ends of the filter. When the blue color of the silica ge bead fades out, it will be the time to change the molecular sieve 

Your set up is perfectly fine. There is no need for any further investment. What you will need to do next is study how the machine works and learn how to repair it by yourself in case it fails. You will need that knowledge a lot more than additional bells and whistles

 

[Eaglebeak]

I don't believe that moisture caused the issue. The O-rings at each end of the cartridge, are supposed to isolate the filter space from the very small cavity between it and the container body. In normal use, the pressure inside the cartridge will expand its wall to eliminate that cavity. If either O-ring does not seal properly, it will allow equal pressure between the inner and outer walls. What may have happened when you opened the bleed valve is that the drop in pressure resealed the bad O-ring creating a vacuum and imploding the canister. If moisture was the issue, we would be seeing a lot more of this going on with people filling large tanks, not as in this case, on only it's second short fill of a gun tank. I'm no expert but this is the only logical hypothesis that makes any sense to me.

 

[Humdinger]

I don't believe that moisture caused the issue. The O-rings at each end of the cartridge, are supposed to isolate the filter space from the very small cavity between it and the container body. In normal use, the pressure inside the cartridge will expand its wall to eliminate that cavity. If either O-ring does not seal properly, it will allow equal pressure between the inner and outer walls. What may have happened when you opened the bleed valve is that the drop in pressure resealed the bad O-ring creating a vacuum and imploding the canister. If moisture was the issue, we would be seeing a lot more of this going on with people filling large tanks, not as in this case, on only it's second short fill of a gun tank. I'm no expert but this is the only logical hypothesis that makes any sense to me.

Eaglebeak, there are two o-rings in the cartridge nipple on the input side that fit into a cutout chamber which forces incoming air through the cartridge body. The cartridge is made of thick rigid plastic and does not expand. Air forced through the cartridge media is dried then exits through the other end. There is a large rubber gasket pressure seal on the exit side of the filter that is designed with a crescent shaped opening to allow air to equalize pressure inside the filter housing, otherwise the stiff plastic cartridge would crack or explode inside when pressurized. It is probable that the filter was saturated and the exit opening was plugged. When Leeboysf detached his input side quick connect, the pressure outside of the cartridge was blocked just long enough that the cartridge's internal air pressure dropped quickly so the blocked seal retained the higher external pressure long enough to implode the cartridge body.

 

[Eaglebeak]

Thanks for the explanation, Humdinger. I don't own a cartridge model myself and it's been a while since I looked into how they are configured. I do remember now that they only have O-rings at one end only. That blows my theory out of the water. In my thinking, I would orientate the direction with the seal on the output side. The air would still have to pass through the filter before exiting but it probably doesn't make any difference. I still don't see moisture being the issue with so little use. It could have been an assembly mistake or a piece of media causing an obstruction. When Leeboysf disconnected the first filter, the pressure had already been bled otherwise he would not have been able to decouple it. Somehow, there must have been high-pressure trapped inside the inner and outer walls after the filter was purged and that would be impossible if the sealed end was on the output side.

 

[leeboysf]

Water separator in your link seems to be a better solution .... I only ran the pump for 30 seconds to fill the gun directly

That kind of big water separator can hold a much larger amount of water and is needed only if you run the compressor for a long period of time. Your Yong Heng is equipped with two water separators of the same kind, one at the outlet of the first stage and the other at the second stage. The only difference is that they are smaller. The two rectangular blocks with bleed valves on them are the water separators.

I also fill my rifle directly and it takes about 3 minutes to get the pressure in the rifle and the gold filter from zero to 4500 psi. Upon bleeding the water separator of the first stage, only a little water comes out and there is none at the second stage so they are doing their job. Adding another big one at the output of the compressor is totally not needed.

Charcoal is mainly used for removing poisonous substance and is needed only when you want to produce breathable air. For moisture removal, they are not as effective as molecular sieve so you just need the latter in the gold filter. 

Regarding silica gel, they can hold more water but I have come across articles saying that they do not remove water as quickly as molecular sieve. You may want to check out relevant articles in the internet. I use silica gel in my gold filter as indicator only. The beads are only placed at the ends of the filter. When the blue color of the silica ge bead fades out, it will be the time to change the molecular sieve 

Your set up is perfectly fine. There is no need for any further investment. What you will need to do next is study how the machine works and learn how to repair it by yourself in case it fails. You will need that knowledge a lot more than additional bells and whistles

Thanks for sharing your knowledge! I appreciate it very much! My future goal is to get a SCBA tank to take it to a shooting range, so that separator might be a good investment for future. 

Regarding the choice of desiccants, I agree with you. I plan to get molecular sieve and silica beads only. I like your idea. 

 

[leeboysf]

I don't believe that moisture caused the issue. The O-rings at each end of the cartridge, are supposed to isolate the filter space from the very small cavity between it and the container body. In normal use, the pressure inside the cartridge will expand its wall to eliminate that cavity. If either O-ring does not seal properly, it will allow equal pressure between the inner and outer walls. What may have happened when you opened the bleed valve is that the drop in pressure resealed the bad O-ring creating a vacuum and imploding the canister. If moisture was the issue, we would be seeing a lot more of this going on with people filling large tanks, not as in this case, on only it's second short fill of a gun tank. I'm no expert but this is the only logical hypothesis that makes any sense to me.

Eaglebeak, there are two o-rings in the cartridge nipple on the input side that fit into a cutout chamber which forces incoming air through the cartridge body. The cartridge is made of thick rigid plastic and does not expand. Air forced through the cartridge media is dried then exits through the other end. There is a large rubber gasket pressure seal on the exit side of the filter that is designed with a crescent shaped opening to allow air to equalize pressure inside the filter housing, otherwise the stiff plastic cartridge would crack or explode inside when pressurized. It is probable that the filter was saturated and the exit opening was plugged. When Leeboysf detached his input side quick connect, the pressure outside of the cartridge was blocked just long enough that the cartridge's internal air pressure dropped quickly so the blocked seal retained the higher external pressure long enough to implode the cartridge body.

I believe you are talking about this portion.

Strange, but this nipple(?) with two green o-rings fit very loosely to the cavity on the cap. When the pressure back flowed, there is a very good chance that pressurized air could have leaked though those two green o-rings and traveled through the space between the desiccant tube and the aluminum tube. 

 

[Eaglebeak]

That is the union that we have been discussing. For the filter to work as designed, that joint needs to be airtight. If yours is so slack that it doesn't seal you might as well just fill the outer casing with desiccant with a fine filter plug at each end to contain it as we do with our older ones. Using the cartridge is a better idea as it isolates the media from the metal housing. Someone who sells his own overpriced units started a rumour that the media, when wet, will turn to acid and eat out the inside of the anodised housing. If that union is leaking on yours, it may have been part of the cause of the failure but I think that there must have been something else going on as well.

 

[airgunfans]

.....this nipple(?) with two green o-rings fit very loosely to the cavity on the cap....

I have not used this kind of gold filter with a separate desiccant cartridge inside so I can only guess.

For the filter to work, all the incoming air must go through the cartridge and nowhere else so those two O rings must seal up the joint completely. But to equalize the pressure inside and outside the cartridge, a loose fitting is in order. A reasonable design is having a tight fit on the intake side and a loose fit on the outlet side where the air has already been dried so it will be OK for some of them to leak into the gap between the cartridge and the aluminium tube.

If this is indeed the design, the filter and the cartridge are directional and they need be used in the correct orientation .