Underlever Underpower

[TornadoBones]

I shoot break barrels but I want to have accuracy benefits of a fixed barrel. (Trust me, I'm a scientist and a statistician and I've studied that topic for many years under controlled conditions. Not trying to start an accuracy debate.) If you disagree, let's agree to disagree so I can get to the real point. I want superior aftermarket barrel options that simply aren't available for breakers but I want the freedom from air pumps or ill just use a powder burner.

Here's the underlever rifles I've been able to find all max out around 880 or lower fps for .22. While these speeds are maybe optimal, in terms of accuracy, it seriously limits the range and knock down power needed for humane hunting. The ground hogs see me 100yds out. I need more than 30-50yds or I can't hit them, regardless of accuracy. I want 50+yds accuracy of a fixed barrel with the power of my break barrels like my Walther Talon Magnum. If fps is too high for accuracy, I'll manage that with heavier pellets. I don't want to manage it with reduced firepower from the underlever.

If the break barrel can achieve hundreds of fps higher using the barrel as a lever, why can't an underlever do it using a dedicated cocking lever?

 

[HPP-Mechanic]

Diana Air King.Done.

 

[TornadoBones]

Really interested in .22, not .177.

 

[Sqwirl57]

Sounds to me like you ne a PCP. 50-100yd power and accuracy for humane groundhog hunting with a piston gun is asking too much. You'll want something in the 60+ ftlb range at 100yds. At 50yds you can get away with 20-30fpe but the more the better.

Also, as a scientist you should have been able to figure out that the Air King also comes in .22 cal putting out somewhere around 22ftlbs. The Max you're going to get with a fixed barrel is around 25fpe which, trust me, isn't enough for a guaranteed killed much beyond 40yds. Even with fixed barrel accuracy you are going to find these over powered magnums aren't accurate enough for hitting a 1" kill zone that is a groundhog brain at that range. Side of the head/temple or through the ear are pretty key with low power with these guys.

 

[SpiralGroove]

If it must be a Breakbarrel:
Diana 350, Diana 460, HW90 or Hatsan 135.

Otherwise, PCP or Powder burner ....

 

[SteveV]

The gun you're looking for is in a scabbard, hanging on a saddled up unicorn.

 

[Feinwerk]

A spring rifle cannot generate the power level you are looking for. If you think your Walther Talon Magnum has the power, have you actually chronographed it and measured its energy? That is the first element of science - collecting baseline data for comparison. You might be shocked to find out that it doesn't live up to it's overly hyped velocity specification. And no, break barrels cannot categorically generate hundreds of FPS higher than an underlever or side lever spring air rifle. Some of the overly high velocity specifications are generated with super light alloy pellets that are only useful to support wild marketing claims.

Following your original constraints, not wanting to use a PCP and air pump, you will have to use a powder burner.

 

[DualMagMike]

A difficult task but try to find a Theoben/Beeman Dual Magnum. Underlever .22 and rated up 36fpe. with lead pellets not hyper light alloys. In the book Airgun Odyssey they mention taking Rockchuck out to 93 yards. An underlever has the ability to match and exceed a break barrel power but it comes at a cost of leverage. An underlevers "bar" will be shorter than most any break barrel and thus will have a higher cocking effort. Using Kodiak pellets the Dual Magnum is capable of exceeding the UK non FAC regulations at 150 yards! Yes, the fpe numbers are correct, I own 2! One actually makes up to 38fpe (unaltered in any way and using lead) the other I slightly de-tuned to make ~30-31fpe.

 

[beerthief]

You do not need power, you need shot placement .

 

[SteveP-52]

Ground hogs are skittish to begin with and it's not so much you they see, it's any kind of movement. Anything that moves they consider dangerous and run for cover as a protection mechanism.
Walther Talon Magnum .22 as in one of these things aka Hatsan 125??

Mine before gifting it to a good friend who likes the higher powered stuff. Shot just short of 24fpe and best groups I ever managed were 3/4's of an inch at 30 yards and that was on a good day. Trying to shoot and humanly, a ground hog at 50+ (let alone 100) considering the shot placement needed? Taking everything that needs factored in to even try and there are any number of very capable shooters here who very likely could, I'm not one of them and why I have a couple 40fpe PCP's here for shots like that.

 

[TornadoBones]

Thanks all. There's some good feedback here but the real gist of my question is that break barrel manufacturers are publishing numbers as high as 1200fps in .22 and underlevers are publishing numbers more like 650-850 fps. I don't think their level of honesty is fundamentally different or that they are using heavier pellets in the underlever. I've searched for a couple of weeks without being able to find chrono data comparisons online.

Yes I'm a scientist and I take a very methodical approach to my shooting. That doesnt mean i own a chronograph.

I mentioned a .22 Walther Talon Mag that I shoot with a nitro piston. It has a lapped choked Walther barrel, mirror polished trigger sears, custom wound trigger springs, a custom designed recoil arrestor in the stock, and a barrel mounted laser I frequently co witness with the scope. The weight of the laser also seves as a barrel break. I can shoot dime sized groups at 25yds all day long but the barrel pivot at the breech takes a ton of care every shot to do this.

 

[TornadoBones]

The high powered mags have a bad reputation for accuracy, which I believe is because they are exceeding the optimal velocity and the spring recoil can be violent. Recoil can be tamed with technology and heavier pellets can help give good knockdown without needing high FPS.

 

[TornadoBones]

It seems a conundrum to me that you need good accuracy AND more power to increase your range. Accuracy wont matter if your pellet cant fly that far and power wont increase your range if you cant hit a target. Thats why im asking about rifles that have fixed barrel (accuracy) but also have some velocity. For me the high velocity is a starting point. Then I'll experiment with pellet types and weights to find the sweet spot, so the fps isn't too fast for accuracy. Thanks for pointing out the available underlever and side lever options that I was unable to find myself online. I may buy one. That said, I would really love to see chrony data from anyone who has compared any of these rifles with different pellets. Thanks.

 

[TornadoBones]

Oh yeah, and I wasn't trying to start a debate about groundhogs or unicorns. Just asking for the kind of underlever/break barrel comparison info I've been unable to find online... which seemed strange to me. If/when I do finally get a chrono, I'll post my numbers.

 

[Sqwirl57]

So..... you really aren't saying anything that anybody here doesn't already know. My .22 Gamo Magnum is rated up to 1400fps with alloy pellets. Actual velocity with normal 14.3gr lead pellets is closer to 900fps. Huge difference and is actually more typical of what people shoot. I actually prefer 16gr as it brings it down to 850fps and will consistently manage 1-1.5" at 50yds. Because that is the best that MY Magnum can manage, I will not use it for pesting beyond 35yds. I'm not risking making an animal suffer from a blown out jaw.

If you want a powerful magnum underlever, get a Diana 460 Magnum in .22 and install a power spring. Its pretty much that simple. And yes, get a chrono. You can't be a "scientist with a methodical approach to my shooting" without one. That's like ballistics 101.

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

You’re asking how to make a tack hammer into a sledgehammer. 22 long rifle with a suppressor. Wouldn’t shoot a ground hog (especially at 100 yards) with anything less. Preferably 22 magnum or 22 hornet. Different tools for different tasks. But then I’m not a scientist.

 

[TornadoBones]

I used the example of groundhogs to add a bit of levity to the discussion while pointing out that manufacturers market these air rifles for small game. If small game is a realistic objective, then it is further evidence (at least to me) that some type of pump airgun would be available out there that combines fpe with accuracy. Otherwise, you really dont have effective range. I understand that mfgrs use light pellets or publish some rather optimistic fps numbers. Feedback from the group here suggests that if using the barrel to cock the gun, we are much bigger liars than if using a dedicated lever to cock the gun.

I'm not really interested in hunting. I'm interested in improving my shooting skills and keeping those skills sharp using the simplicity of a pump airgun. At close range most of us can produce some very nice groups. At 50yds, i can really start to see differences in my holds, my breathing and my trigger technique. If the effective range of the rifle is limited by accuracy OR power, then it is less useful for that purpose of honing my skills. I've been able to estimate the effect of barrel pivot on my accuracy, without using a chronograph. The barrel pivot is an important variable that can influence the accuracy (and thus the effective range) of the rifle. I can't be the only one that understands this. There are a lot of very experienced and clever engineers out there and I believe this is one big reason underlever rifles exist. Maybe in the quest for accuracy, the same engineers that resorted to a fixed barrel (underlever) design realized that slowing down the fps could further benefit accuracy. The same mindset that brought us a fixed barrel also favored optimal subsonic fps. This could explain why it's so hard to find a high powered underlever.

 

[TornadoBones]

For me, it would be attractive to find a fixed barrel (like an underlever) with greater effective range based on both power and accuracy. I know I'll get responses recommending PCP, which I'm not very interested in. I'd like to know if anyone is aware of underlevers that can match the fpe of a break barrel in .22. Which are currently available in the market.

 

[Sqwirl57]

Literally not one person here has said underlevers weren't inherently more accurate. That being said, I have more than a few break barrels that will shoot sub inch at 50yds all day. I have one that has broken 1/4". None of those put out more than 16fpe though.

You've already been recommended a 460 Magnum which is at break barrel power levels. Hatsan also makes a couple. Not sure what else you are looking for here aside from people believing you when you say "you're a smart scientist". I'm going to level with you some. The more you talk the less I believe you. Take that for whatever its worth.

 

[beerthief]

watch some of the UK videos they do close to what you want with sub12 FPE .177 and .22 (and yes ground hogs are involved . which is why i said you need shot placement not FPE. this link and search around it .im mot saying you should use sub 12 just that it is done all the time