Underlever Underpower

[TornadoBones]

I shoot break barrels but I want to have accuracy benefits of a fixed barrel. (Trust me, I'm a scientist and a statistician and I've studied that topic for many years under controlled conditions. Not trying to start an accuracy debate.) If you disagree, let's agree to disagree so I can get to the real point. I want superior aftermarket barrel options that simply aren't available for breakers but I want the freedom from air pumps or ill just use a powder burner.

Here's the underlever rifles I've been able to find all max out around 880 or lower fps for .22. While these speeds are maybe optimal, in terms of accuracy, it seriously limits the range and knock down power needed for humane hunting. The ground hogs see me 100yds out. I need more than 30-50yds or I can't hit them, regardless of accuracy. I want 50+yds accuracy of a fixed barrel with the power of my break barrels like my Walther Talon Magnum. If fps is too high for accuracy, I'll manage that with heavier pellets. I don't want to manage it with reduced firepower from the underlever.

If the break barrel can achieve hundreds of fps higher using the barrel as a lever, why can't an underlever do it using a dedicated cocking lever?

 

[luckybuckeye]

beerthief is correct it’s all about shot placement. The UK guys always aim between the eye and ear for furry critters and have no problems with rifles putting out 10.5-11.8 fpe. Most things I read is that regardless of power 50 yards is about the limit for springer accuracy. For the groundhogs try different tactics. Set up a blind downwind at a closer range or set up the blind behind their hole where they can’t see you from inside the hole. They will come out eventually. Hunting is an exercise in patience sometimes. Also sometimes the groundhogs can become skittish with too much hunting pressure and you have to back off for a few days.

Hunting groundhogs with a springer is like bow hunting everything has to be perfect. Distance, wind, position of the animal. You only have one shot and it has to go between eye and ear. Here’s a link about a guy hunting rockchucks with a springer. They are a western marmot very similar in size to groundhogs.

https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/airgun-hunting/422510-critters-you-hunt-your-air-gun.html

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

beerthief is correct it’s all about shot placement. The UK guys always aim between the eye and ear for furry critters and have no problems with rifles putting out 10.5-11.8 fpe. Most things I read is that regardless of power 50 yards is about the limit for springer accuracy. For the groundhogs try different tactics. Set up a blind downwind at a closer range or set up the blind behind their hole where they can’t see you from inside the hole. They will come out eventually. Hunting is an exercise in patience sometimes. Also sometimes the groundhogs can become skittish with too much hunting pressure and you have to back off for a few days.

Hunting groundhogs with a springer is like bow hunting everything has to be perfect. Distance, wind, position of the animal. You only have one shot and it has to go between eye and ear. Here’s a link about a guy hunting rockchucks with a springer. They are a western marmot very similar in size to groundhogs.

https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/airgun-hunting/422510-critters-you-hunt-your-air-gun.html

Totally agree with shot placement. Always. Also remember that these Brits don’t have the freedom/option of anything else. Why gamble a inhumane shot to a living animal like a ground hog that will climb back down his hole and die a slow death. We as Americans who have not surrendered are freedom (yet) can drop a ground hog at the hole. Did it for a friend (decades ago) raising Lama’s to avoid them breaking a leg in the pasture. Used a Kimber 82 in 22 Hornet. They never knew what hit them. Pesting responsibly.

 

[maxtrouble]

@luckybuckeye - Perfect explanation of hunting with a springer. I have been practicing on chipmunks and they can humble and frustrate you in a second. I swear they can laugh.

Blind / bait trap and stealth are your friends when hunting with a springer.

 

[TornadoBones]

Literally not one person here has said underlevers weren't inherently more accurate. That being said, I have more than a few break barrels that will shoot sub inch at 50yds all day. I have one that has broken 1/4". None of those put out more than 16fpe though.

You've already been recommended a 460 Magnum which is at break barrel power levels. Hatsan also makes a couple. Not sure what else you are looking for here aside from people believing you when you say "you're a smart scientist". I'm going to level with you some. The more you talk the less I believe you. Take that for whatever its worth.

No reason to continue to make personal comments and be disrespectful, brother. I have studied and practiced innovation theory and taught methods of experimentation for 40 years. I have mechanical, chemical and electronic patents and my work has won multiple Presidents awards from fortune 500 companies. That doesn't mean I know anything about air rifles. Not trying to brag or sound smart but i may have done a bad job of explaining how/why i arrived at the questions or conclusions that are on my mind. That's what I was trying to do. I came here to respectfully learn from you and the others' knowledge and experiences on the forum. If I've, misstated anything then im here to gladly be corrected. Honestly, your comments have been helpful and I appreciate it. Don't mean to sound holier than thou or sour grapes or anything. It's all good.

 

[TornadoBones]

I had documented from my own tests that a barrel pivot has the capability to affect shot placement. It is a variable that fixed barrel rifles don't have. I know there are many examples of good break barrels out there and people have had great results with different break barrels. Myself included.

The 460 is published at 900fps. Its still hundreds below the PUBLISHED fps of my breakers. To really compare, I'd have to buy a chrono and a 460. Rather than drop $1000 to satisfy my curiosity, I thought I could start here. If anyone has chrono'd a 460 AND one of the high powered break barrels like a hatsan 125... I'd be grateful to see the real comparison between a brek barrel and underlever. I've been unable to find data like this online.

his might be the best option, given the scarcity of the Theoben dual magnum. I would like to invest in a fixed barrel underlever and was unable find fps numbers that were close to my break barrels. Just wanted to understand why.

I have not been able to find aftermarket barrel options for break barrels, or smiths who handle such mods. I have been able to find a lot of blanks for fixed barrels that may only take some careful lathe work to adapt to a fixed barrel gun.

 

[TornadoBones]

I had documented from my own tests that a barrel pivot has the capability to affect shot placement. It is a variable that fixed barrel rifles don't have. I know there are many examples of good break barrels out there and people have had great results with different break barrels. Myself included.

The 460 is published at 900fps. Its still hundreds below the PUBLISHED fps of my breakers. To really compare, I'd have to buy a chrono and a 460. Rather than drop $1000 to satisfy my curiosity, I thought I could start here. If anyone has chrono'd a 460 AND one of the high powered break barrels like a hatsan 125... I'd be grateful to see the real comparison between a brek barrel and underlever. I've been unable to find data like this online.

his might be the best option, given the scarcity of the Theoben dual magnum. I would like to invest in a fixed barrel underlever and was unable find fps numbers that were close to my break barrels. Just wanted to understand why.

I have not been able to find aftermarket barrel options for break barrels, or smiths who handle such mods. I have been able to find a lot of blanks for fixed barrels that may only take some careful lathe work to adapt to a fixed barrel gun.

I'm interested in barrel tuning and barrel mods, which is part of the interest.

 

[Sqwirl57]

As a highly decorated scientist myself, I just scientically typed "Diana 460 velocity" into Google and had an answer from a reputable source two links down from the top. With a PG4 kit installed, you will be a measly 50fps short of matching the Hatsan 125 velocity using the 15.9gr JSB pellets. The 125/135 has a bigger piston than just about everything else currently on the market (aside from Gamos 33mm gas ram) so if 50fps isn't close enough I really don't know what else to tell you.

 

[boscoebrea]

"Truth"Jeff Beck,love it....."Barking up the wrong tree" with the wrong thought process, need to narrow what you really want.
I fixed barrel springer,tell you ,this my RWS 48-52 is one ; accurate and powerful.
Think about what you are really after, and make a simple statement, believe me, a lot of people have already thought what you are thinking.
The pivot point, is that not why you want a fixed barrel ?
Also in a real hunting situation, there is Minium difference in accuracy between a break barrel and a fixed barrel; heck the pellets used would be a bigger factor, plus what about the shooter's ability?
Please experiment,and the best to you.

 

[beerthief]

"The Air gun industry has brain washed the american public to think that speed kills. They are right speed kills air guns. They shake and rattle them selves to peaces. The TX200 is a heavy gun. It is also a "slow" gun. But that it lacks in speed it more than compensates in accuracy. I mostly head shoot my animals, and between the eye and ear is my bread and butter shot. The TX200 allows me to take that shot out to 75 yards."

copied from another site

 

[Mickshooter]

I recently bought (2) hatsan 125's. One in .22 (spring powered) and one in .25 (vortek) and both are glorified 30+ ft/lb guns. Definitely not match accurate but for $300.00 they are some of the most powerful break barrels out there.
For fixed barrel Springer, the RWS 48/54 Will be in the 22-23 ft/lb and a little more accurate.

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

I had documented from my own tests that a barrel pivot has the capability to affect shot placement. It is a variable that fixed barrel rifles don't have. I know there are many examples of good break barrels out there and people have had great results with different break barrels. Myself included.

The 460 is published at 900fps. Its still hundreds below the PUBLISHED fps of my breakers. To really compare, I'd have to buy a chrono and a 460. Rather than drop $1000 to satisfy my curiosity, I thought I could start here. If anyone has chrono'd a 460 AND one of the high powered break barrels like a hatsan 125... I'd be grateful to see the real comparison between a brek barrel and underlever. I've been unable to find data like this online.

his might be the best option, given the scarcity of the Theoben dual magnum. I would like to invest in a fixed barrel underlever and was unable find fps numbers that were close to my break barrels. Just wanted to understand why.

I have not been able to find aftermarket barrel options for break barrels, or smiths who handle such mods. I have been able to find a lot of blanks for fixed barrels that may only take some careful lathe work to adapt to a fixed barrel gun.

First off I would like to welcome you to AGN. Thank you also for having enough confidence to ask and get true answers here.
You have however come on quite strong and sounding almost boastful. You should check facts before stating them. You said and I quote “Rather than drop $1000 to satisfy my curiosity, I thought I could start here.” end quote. A good scientist should be better with math. Also a barrel breaking springer is not inherently less accurate than a fixed barrel IF it is used as most are produced and the iron sights that are mounted on the barrel are used. Remove the rear sight and use a peep, dot or scope and you MAY have made it less accurate.

 

[cjtamu]

As a scientist you should know better than to draw your conclusion before you’ve done the research, which in this instance is precisely what you’ve done. You’ve already arrived at the conclusion that more velocity = more power and brother, that ain’t necessarily so. The gun in an unaltered state is essentially the constant in the speed equation. All of the other variables including altitude, temperature, pellet weight, pellet lube, pellet composition and more can be and are manipulated. All so people can fall into the speed kills trap as beer thief said. You should know better than to accept published data at face value. What you should be asking yourself is how were the variables manipulated to increase the muzzle velocity for that rifle? One of the first things I look at when I do Expert is evidence data was manipulated to give a favorable outcome.

Would you rather stand in front of a bicycle going 50 mph or an 18-wheeler at 40 mph? We all know the answer and it’s because POWER is a function of both velocity and mass. Assuming a basic understanding of angular momentum you can also see where extra mass is generally beneficial in conserving energy downfield. Generally. We won’t get into how the more accurate projectile can retain energy downfield because the factors that affect flight also affect energy. So, what you’re looking for is a spring powered fixed barrel gun making 50 FPE or better at the muzzle with laser accuracy between 50 and 100 yards. As someone said, it’s called the Unicorn. It doesn’t exist.

PCP is the only gun that will supply what you’re looking for. They needn’t be complicated. I own one PCP gun, a Walther Maximathor .22. Unregulated. Small air tube so it’s not hard to fill with a hand pump. Makes between 40-48 FPE at the muzzle depending on what pellet I use. Deadly accurate. Snooze fest at 30 yd. 1/2” groups at 50. No hold sensitivity so you can shoot off bags, tripod, whatever. You can shoot slugs for even more power and accuracy down range. Unfortunately, Walther no longer makes that gun. But, I’m sure there are other guns that are similar. PCP is the only way you’re going to get the specs you’re after.

 

[SteveP-52]

Helpful tip: Ignore published FPS numbers by makers for their guns. They want to impress you with those big numbers so you'll hopefully buy theirs vs their competitors.To get those numbers, they tend to use the lightest weight, non lead pellets they can get to produce those insanely high numbers. Use real lead pellets in the weights most shooters are going to use and those numbers drop and very drastically.
Hatsan is the only company out there that, although they use light weight pellets, use real lead testing their guns and their published FPS numbers are very close to what they actually claim. I've owned or still do, any number of them and every one of them has been within 50fps of what they state in their advertising.
Don't buy the speed hype and don't think a rifle is a good deal because they include a scope. The included ones are usually junk that fail in a tin of pellets or 2.

 

[Bear-of-Grayling]

If worried about neighbors and animals then consider a 17HMR. The bullet explodes on a leaf so no worries of a ricochet. Not so with a pellet. Use a suppressor and then the only sound is the ballistic crack from breaking the sound barrier but a high speed pellet will do that to.
My argument here and point I’ve been trying to make is the most powerful springer is a poor choice for a humane shot at any critter much past 40 yards. Especially something the size and toughness of a Wood Chuck. So I don’t understand why this is your attempt. This is their environment and not a laboratory and these are not lab rats.

 

[EMrider]

I had documented from my own tests that a barrel pivot has the capability to affect shot placement. It is a variable that fixed barrel rifles don't have. I know there are many examples of good break barrels out there and people have had great results with different break barrels. Myself included.

The 460 is published at 900fps. Its still hundreds below the PUBLISHED fps of my breakers. To really compare, I'd have to buy a chrono and a 460. Rather than drop $1000 to satisfy my curiosity, I thought I could start here. If anyone has chrono'd a 460 AND one of the high powered break barrels like a hatsan 125... I'd be grateful to see the real comparison between a brek barrel and underlever. I've been unable to find data like this online.

his might be the best option, given the scarcity of the Theoben dual magnum. I would like to invest in a fixed barrel underlever and was unable find fps numbers that were close to my break barrels. Just wanted to understand why.

I have not been able to find aftermarket barrel options for break barrels, or smiths who handle such mods. I have been able to find a lot of blanks for fixed barrels that may only take some careful lathe work to adapt to a fixed barrel gun.

I don’t think that you’re listening to what folks here are trying to tell you. Published FPS numbers are not meaningful unless you are using a standardized weight pellet from the same manufacturer. You are throwing around all sorts of FPS numbers, but don’t seem to know what pellet was used. It has not been my (nor anyone else that I can recall) experience that break barrel spring guns shoot at higher power levels that under lever spring guns. Heck, two of the most popular, the hw95 and hw97k, use the exact same power plant. Marketing departments for some brands like to tout high FPS numbers, but that is not the case for the higher quality producers like HW, AA and Diana.

R

 

[abslayer]

My HW 97 pokes along at around 640 FPS with a 15.89 pellet and will kill just fine up to 50 yds
Far more important than speed is how they the group pellets ( In other words shot placement)

 

[crosman2016]

Diana Air King.Done.

I agree...now, whether or not you can find one "in stock" is another question.

 

[crosman2016]

My HW 97 pokes along at around 640 FPS with a 15.89 pellet and will kill just fine up to 50 yds
Far more important than speed is how they the group pellets ( In other words shot placement)

Yup. Shot placement usually trumps FPS every time.

 

[2L8]

Dedicated cocking lever included...
Seneca Dragonfly Mk2 Multi-Pump.
Even at lower fps, out past 50yds, with less effort. Shot placement will be much easier to manage as well. Even a .17 will do the trick out to 100.
Just a suggestion outside the box.

Patrick

 

[jkingrph]

• Thursday at 6:05 PM
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• #31

"I had documented from my own tests that a barrel pivot has the capability to affect shot placement. It is a variable that fixed barrel rifles don't have. I know there are many examples of good break barrels out there and people have had great results with different break barrels. Myself included.
The 460 is published at 900fps. Its still hundreds below the PUBLISHED fps of my breakers. To really compare, I'd have to buy a chrono and a 460. Rath

First off I would like to welcome you to AGN. Thank you also for having enough confidence to ask and get true answers here.
You have however come on quite strong and sounding almost boastful. You should check facts before stating them. You said and I quote “Rather than drop $1000 to satisfy my curiosity, I thought I could start here.” end quote. A good scientist should be better with math. Also a barrel breaking springer is not inherently less accurate than a fixed barrel IF it is used as most are produced and the iron sights that are mounted on the barrel are used. Remove the rear sight and use a peep, dot or scope and you MAY have made it less accurate."

I like the statement MAY. I have only tried peeps on two break barrels, an old FWB 124 and it makes it vastly more accurate than the factory rear leaf, It's probably been 40+ years since I measured groups, but they are still small and I must say I shoot far more reactive targets than paper any more. I attribute the accuracy to the greatly increased sight radius, doing a quick measure with my hand span 14-15 inches. and a brief try with on on a new FWB sport, My only other break barrel is a HW 98 which requires a scope. and again after zeroing on paper I prefer reactive targets, I routeinly hit a little 1 1/4 inch diamond shaped swinger at 30 yards with no problems, off a bench, but honestly have started shooting more at closer ranges shooting my iron sighted rifles offhand.