Underlever VS Breakbarrel
- Thread starter rleegabe
- Start date
I know the expression, just never heard it with a pellet gun.
“When the chips are down, thats when i know i can rely on my Red Ryder bb gun”
just sounds funny to me, like its for a slogan or commercial
“When the chips are down, thats when i know i can rely on my Red Ryder bb gun”
just sounds funny to me, like its for a slogan or commercial
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You will find volumes of comments online on this topic and most of them may be true... in the specific experience of the person commenting. When you ask a question about the relative accuracy about break barrel vs fixed barrel. You are really asking HOW TRUE this is and under what conditions. My comments here are based on hundreds of hours co witnessing barrel mounted lasers with receiver mounted scopes on break barrel rifles.
If there is a flexible link or pivot between the receiver mounted scope and the barrel, there will ALWAYS be another variable you need to control in order to achieve the full capabilities of the shooter and the rifle. Some break barrel designs address this fairly well, like the Weihrauch HW55O or some Wiscombes. Others (and probably most) break barrel designs... not so much. Keep in mind, virtually any of them can change over time, depending on wear and maintenance. I've seen the barrel return to a point aimed 4 inches below the cross hairs at 25yds (w laser mounted on barrel) after cocking some break barrels.
Often a careful routine is enough to ensure the variable of the barrel's pivot point is the least of your worries to achieve your best accuracy. I gently settle my barrels upward with a gentle push immediately before every shot. I also frequently check by co witnessing a laser on the barrel with the cross hair on the scope. It's part of my training regimen and it helps me understand how the gun is functioning and where to focus my efforts to improve (breathing, trigger control, holds, gun maintenance, etc.).
Keep in mind that for airguns, the pellet is still in the barrel while the barrel is responding to recoil, your hold and the security of the breech pivot detent. It all matters and it's easy to blame the pivot for fly aways. I belive proper maintenance, analysis of the quality of the pivot (such as with lasers) and prudent cocking routine can help a breaker achieve comparable results to a competition fixed barrel.
If there is a flexible link or pivot between the receiver mounted scope and the barrel, there will ALWAYS be another variable you need to control in order to achieve the full capabilities of the shooter and the rifle. Some break barrel designs address this fairly well, like the Weihrauch HW55O or some Wiscombes. Others (and probably most) break barrel designs... not so much. Keep in mind, virtually any of them can change over time, depending on wear and maintenance. I've seen the barrel return to a point aimed 4 inches below the cross hairs at 25yds (w laser mounted on barrel) after cocking some break barrels.
Often a careful routine is enough to ensure the variable of the barrel's pivot point is the least of your worries to achieve your best accuracy. I gently settle my barrels upward with a gentle push immediately before every shot. I also frequently check by co witnessing a laser on the barrel with the cross hair on the scope. It's part of my training regimen and it helps me understand how the gun is functioning and where to focus my efforts to improve (breathing, trigger control, holds, gun maintenance, etc.).
Keep in mind that for airguns, the pellet is still in the barrel while the barrel is responding to recoil, your hold and the security of the breech pivot detent. It all matters and it's easy to blame the pivot for fly aways. I belive proper maintenance, analysis of the quality of the pivot (such as with lasers) and prudent cocking routine can help a breaker achieve comparable results to a competition fixed barrel.
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Your last sentence summarizes it completely. Dept store variety doesn't count. I too have several quality break barrel guns that I would put up against my fixed barrel springers any day, and I've been shooting them for YEARS with no shift in accuracy. Any decline in accuracy can be attributed to the USER, not the equipment. My Sig ASP20 break barrel rivals my PCP guns in accuracy. Period.
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Hey, Airshot. I liked your comments. I have a magnum break barrel with nitro piston in .22, with a Walther barrel. I've made a number of custom mods and really live this rifle but from my tests co-witnessing barrel mounted lasers with receiver mounted scope, I've identified the breach pivot as the weak link. The return lock isn't a sufficient detent to ensure the barrel returns to the same point after cocking each time. If I physically settle the barrel upward just prior to every shot, then it's not so bad. It just seems like the rest of the rifles capabilities are being limited by that aspect in this particular case. Not sure if a smith could improve it but that's what drew my attention to the underlevers. I love the power of this gun and use 21g pellets to slow it down for best accuracy. Having trouble finding underlever designs in .22 with anything comparable for fps or fpe. What's your take?
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YES. TOTALLY AGREE. Some of my practice sessions are "trigger" days. It's the main focus of that session. Thats why ive gone so far as to wind my own springs. Trigger tuning has made a huge difference for me with springers.
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I can understand the concept of a fix barrel being more accurate over time but I personally haven't seen that. It didn't stop me from buying both.
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My 177 Hw95 is potentially every bit as accurate as my 177 Hw97. Both capable of five shot groups at fifty yards you can completely cover with a dime. Capable means on a day when the winds are down, I've got a great working tin for that gun and I haven't had too much coffee or not enough sleep.
Obviously the stars have to align for me to shoot such good groups so it doesn't happen often.
My point is there's so many other variables when it comes to springer accuracy whether or not the barrel is fixed really is the least of concerns. At least it is for me.
I will say that my Hw97 (fixed barrel) shoots those good groups more often than my Hw95 (break barrel). That's why I said the 95 is potentially as accurate as my 97. However it has nothing to do with the barrel mounting. It has to do with power to weight ratio. The Hw95 makes 15.1 fpe and weighs 9.2 lbs. My Hw97 makes 14 fpe and weighs 10.9 lbs. Thats 1.63 vs 1.28. Springers typically have better accuracy with lower power to weight ratios. The extra weight and lower power of the 97 just make it easier to shoot accurately.
Personally I think the concept of this thread and the other underlever/underpowered thread is just a lot of unnecessary mental masturbation. IMO there's a lot of conjecture and not enough experience and action on the part of OP to really warrant the amount of Sage advice that's already been given.
This is an open forum and everyone is free to ask questions. Even though we may have differences in opinions most of us give them sincerely based on experience. To argue about the accuracy and power of different gun designs with skewed published numbers and pure theory whilst overlooking the more important real world variables make the whole thread almost pointless. Especially if none of the advice is heeded and you're too cheap to take some sort of action.
I've personally shot plenty of groundhogs on a cattle ranch in upstate NY. I've used 22lr, 17hmr and 223. I will not use a 22LR past 50 yards or a 17hmr past 100 yards. While 50 yards with a springer might be possible for an excellent shot, with an excellent gun, with a great tin of pellets, on day with no wind and if the groundhog stays still in the right position, I think BOG was right and this is an inhumane endeavor.
If you really want to shoot woodchucks past 50 get yourself a powder burner. At the very least a kick asz PCP. A high power springer is going to be too weak and too hard to shoot accurately under real world conditions. That's whether the barrel is fixed or not.
Obviously the stars have to align for me to shoot such good groups so it doesn't happen often.
My point is there's so many other variables when it comes to springer accuracy whether or not the barrel is fixed really is the least of concerns. At least it is for me.
I will say that my Hw97 (fixed barrel) shoots those good groups more often than my Hw95 (break barrel). That's why I said the 95 is potentially as accurate as my 97. However it has nothing to do with the barrel mounting. It has to do with power to weight ratio. The Hw95 makes 15.1 fpe and weighs 9.2 lbs. My Hw97 makes 14 fpe and weighs 10.9 lbs. Thats 1.63 vs 1.28. Springers typically have better accuracy with lower power to weight ratios. The extra weight and lower power of the 97 just make it easier to shoot accurately.
Personally I think the concept of this thread and the other underlever/underpowered thread is just a lot of unnecessary mental masturbation. IMO there's a lot of conjecture and not enough experience and action on the part of OP to really warrant the amount of Sage advice that's already been given.
This is an open forum and everyone is free to ask questions. Even though we may have differences in opinions most of us give them sincerely based on experience. To argue about the accuracy and power of different gun designs with skewed published numbers and pure theory whilst overlooking the more important real world variables make the whole thread almost pointless. Especially if none of the advice is heeded and you're too cheap to take some sort of action.
I've personally shot plenty of groundhogs on a cattle ranch in upstate NY. I've used 22lr, 17hmr and 223. I will not use a 22LR past 50 yards or a 17hmr past 100 yards. While 50 yards with a springer might be possible for an excellent shot, with an excellent gun, with a great tin of pellets, on day with no wind and if the groundhog stays still in the right position, I think BOG was right and this is an inhumane endeavor.
If you really want to shoot woodchucks past 50 get yourself a powder burner. At the very least a kick asz PCP. A high power springer is going to be too weak and too hard to shoot accurately under real world conditions. That's whether the barrel is fixed or not.
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You guys are awesome. Thanks for exactly the discussion I was hoping for, and for posting data!
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I own powder burners but my property is surrounded by livestock and humans. I can practice airguns all day without bothering the neighbors. My references to groundhogs was meant to be a case in point that higher powered (AND accurate) underlevers must exist because of the market emphasis on small game. Only g'hog I've ever shot was a headshot at 40yds with a 9mm baretta pistol. Trigger and breathing technique were refined with my air rifle training. There were periods in my life when I spent hours every day (for months, if not years) shooting air rifles with the goal of improving my shot placement. I just want a .22 pump platform as capable as I am, so I can continue to improve (including at greater range, like 50yds... or more?)
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Nice shot. Nice Gregoris got me interested in barrel lapping. He's the only break barrel guy up there!
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I'm out.
If worried about neighbors and animals then consider a 17HMR. The bullet explodes on a leaf so no worries of a ricochet. Not so with a pellet. Use a suppressor and then the only sound is the ballistic crack from breaking the sound barrier but a pellet will do that to.
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.17 hmr is a good choice. My el cheapo savage shoots 1” groups at 100 yards and drops them on the spot with a head, neck, or chest shot out to 75 yards.
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Some of the truest words ever posted on AGN. I've rolled these thoughts around in my head with PCP vs springer. There's no doubt I'm more accurate off a rest with my PCP. But that's because I can rest the PCP in a different, and more favorable, manner than the springer. So, you're not really proving any inherent accuracy differences between power plants. Anecdotal evidence like 1st and 2nd place both shooting under levers is just that. Just a small sample of things you'd need to control to prove springer vs under lever accuracy: 1) Gun optimization. Stock screw and trigger guard tightness. Different for each gun, can be different for the same models between two guns. Power plant. has it been tuned properly? This affects accuracy also. Much more, but to impress me you'd need empirical evidence you had optimized each gun; 2) pellet choice. This gets fun. Easy to say I shot pellet "X" from both guns. Wonderful but we all know some guns favor certain pellets, so now you have to account for this. There are what, probably a hundred or more choices in a given caliber? Now I need empirical evidence that you selected the proper pellet for each gun. And that it was seated properly and consistently in each gun. And... 3) Trigger. How do you account for this? Same brand, same trigger is probably as close as you can get, but there are variations there too. How is the trigger being pulled? If it's a human hand then you've just introduced a margin of error that negates all your testing. So, now we need a robotic arm that can pull the trigger in precisely the same manner for both guns. This list could go on forever, but like Mycapt65 said it's just fruitless. The best you can come up with is a gun that works for you and under given conditions. Standing, off hand, I'll take my HW95 .22 over my Walther Maximathor .22 every time. Off a bench, money on the line, the Walther gets the nod. So, which is more accurate?
Simple rule. if you're taking a shot at something and you're not sure you can drop it, don't shoot it. Know your limits with your equipment. That's air guns, PB, bows, whatever.
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