US HFT Pistol Scope Rule Question

[Target Forge]

Hello my Airgun Nation brothers,

I have a question or rather maybe a talking point primarily targeted to my fellow HFT/AAFTA cohorts. In the AAFTA pistol US HFT rules it does not allow any optic over 12X. While in the rifle class, they allow much higher magnification, but allow that optic to be dialed to the maximum for the class. Why not allow the same thing for pistol shooters? What is behind this rule? Is there a reason for it? To me, it seems this really limits the range and quality of optic choices for these guns. I’ve attended a pistol match and to be honest there where no true pistols in the running, nearly everything I saw was a chopped down custom rifle. Not saying that is a bad thing at all, winning is winning and if it’s inside the rules “play ball” but it seems a stretch to me to allow custom guns like this, then top it with a severely limited selection of glass. Especially really good glass. Throw some words at me, help me understand…

 

[dan_house]

Politics..... when FT pistol and Hunter class rifle FT were in their infancy, a handful of people were vocal enough to get those classes set to 12x for scopes. From what I can tell, having "been there" while all this was discussed on line at the time, these folks were of the opinion that NO ONE hunts with more than 12x, thus thats the limit set in the rules.

Added: Both classes were seen as a way to start a "run what ya brung" kinda thing, hoping to stop the pneumatic arms race that Open class had become, and allow folks to compete with gear they already had. And since most of us have a 12x or 16x scope laying around, that also factored into it.

Gotta wonder how many more would participate in Hunter class and PFT if the scope limits were removed

Hunter Class (rifle) has since been allowed to use 16x.

 

[bvan]

AAFTA Pistol match is limited to 35 yards max for targets. 12x mag is fine for ranging out to this distance. More magnification doesn’t get you anywhere.

 

[AirNGasman]

As the man not only most responsible for the 12X PFT scope magnification limit, and entirely responsible for the existence of pistol field target, was it up to (only) me the PFT magnification limit might be 4X or 9X, as actually used in handgun hunting situations; especially back when I founded Pistol FT about 15 years ago. But it wasn't up to only me; I was just one of five pistol field target rules committee members (until overthrowing the Committee Chairman in a hostile coup).

The 12X limit was a compromise between my opinion that an air pistol (and scope) should bear some resemblance to a pistol, and other members' opinions the only difference between a field target pistol and scope and a FT rifle and scope ought be a pistol grip instead of a butt-stock. See photo below for some idea about what the liberal committee members consider a pistol.

Neither side won. 12X scopes being the HFT rifle limit, that is where the compromise naturally landed. The PFT 15" barrel-length limit including all muzzle gizmos, and the 12 foot pound energy limit were other compromises reached after much contentious debate.

The reason the Rifle HFT scope magnification limit was raised to 16X years later was to appease loud and incessant voices demanding more magnification than that. Another compromise. BTW, compromise is not a four-letter.

I could go on explaining more details in depth, but I've already done so several times on this forum and don't care to continue repeating myself. Feel free to use the search feature to locate those posts.

I'll close this explanation as always. Folks who disagree with this or that rule often have a propensity to want to believe rules come about for no logical reason, or from someone in position of authority composing arbitrary or self-serving rules, or, most laughably, think they know better than the rules-maker(s).

Sorry to bust anyone's bubble, but WRONG!

Virtually every FT rule ever debated on the airgun forums came about- 1) For very good reason(s). 2) After much consideration, forethought, and often, contentious debate. 3) By long-experienced FT shooters, more experienced than most folks reading this. 4) Who ascended to their positions of authority due to their qualifications. 5) Arrived at the best rule(s). 6) Through democratic process. 7) And most through... Care to hazard a guess?

COMPROMISES!

 

[AirNGasman]

"Gotta wonder how many more would participate in Hunter class and PFT if the scope limits were removed"

None. They'd just find another excuse to cover up the reason they don't compete, competition anxiety (fear of embarrassment).

 

[SqrlHntr]

Thanks for the abridged history Ron. TBH I really like the 12x limit. I shot using 10.5x this past weekend and think it was a great magnification for the yardages. I thought the same thing before, why a 12x limit, but after some practice and a lane or two the 3-12x scope I used, it was a perfect match to my pistol. Me, not so much, but the 10x was perfect in terms of holdovers and FOV for the target. I dont click my scopes in TEXtreme, though allowed. Although even if I was clicking, the 10x would have been more than acceptable. Shorter eye relief didn't hurt either nor did the lighter weight and mounting options. Looking back on the match I don’t think more magnification would have helped much in terms of scoring overall, and 12x sure didnt inhibit Pablo in the slightest either, he damn near aced the course!

 

[Target Forge]

AAFTA Pistol match is limited to 35 yards max for targets. 12x mag is fine for ranging out to this distance. More magnification doesn’t get you anywhere.

My words NEVER asked for more magnification. You want a limit at 12X? Great set the scope for 12X, simple enough. Limiting it to ONLY scopes that max out at 12X that is the issue I'm trying to shed light on. It severely limits the shooters choice in buying a new unit. In the Rifle class I can use any scope I want, but it MUST be marked 16X or I have to go to the next lowest setting. I also cannot use the turrets so spending money on precise repeatable turrets makes no sense either. Not complicated, no arms race. Perhaps I just did not word the original post well enough?

 

[Target Forge]

As the man not only most responsible for the 12X PFT scope magnification limit, and entirely responsible for the existence of pistol field target, was it up to (only) me the PFT magnification limit might be 4X or 9X, as actually used in handgun hunting situations; especially back when I founded Pistol FT about 15 years ago. But it wasn't up to only me; I was just one of five pistol field target rules committee members (until overthrowing the Committee Chairman in a hostile coup).

The 12X limit was a compromise between my opinion that an air pistol (and scope) should bear some resemblance to a pistol, and other members' opinions the only difference between a field target pistol and scope and a FT rifle and scope ought be a pistol grip instead of a butt-stock. See photo below for some idea about what the liberal committee members consider a pistol.

Neither side won. 12X scopes being the HFT rifle limit, that is where the compromise naturally landed. The PFT 15" barrel-length limit including all muzzle gizmos, and the 12 foot pound energy limit were other compromises reached after much contentious debate.

The reason the Rifle HFT scope magnification limit was raised to 16X years later was to appease loud and incessant voices demanding more magnification than that. Another compromise. BTW, compromise is not a four-letter.

I could go on explaining more details in depth, but I've already done so several times on this forum and don't care to continue repeating myself. Feel free to use the search feature to locate those posts.

I'll close this explanation as always. Folks who disagree with this or that rule often have a propensity to want to believe rules come about for no logical reason, or from someone in position of authority composing arbitrary or self-serving rules, or, most laughably, think they know better than the rules-maker(s).

Sorry to bust anyone's bubble, but WRONG!

Virtually every FT rule ever debated on the airgun forums came about- 1) For very good reason(s). 2) After much consideration, forethought, and often, contentious debate. 3) By long-experienced FT shooters, more experienced than most folks reading this. 4) Who ascended to their positions of authority due to their qualifications. 5) Arrived at the best rule(s). 6) Through democratic process. 7) And most through... Care to hazard a guess?

COMPROMISES!

View attachment 267960

The point of my inquiry was NOT to suggest that the 12X limit was wrong. Only that IN THIS current market there are not many GOOD scopes that stop at 12X. I have No issue with whatever magnification the experts desire, absolutely none. What I'm saying is that many manufactures have dropped scopes with a 12X limit and the current choices kinda suck. Having an artificial limit based on magnification mechanism here is an obstacle to every shooter that does not have a glorious "junk box" of old gear to draw from. You want 12X? Or 10X? No problem, I never said anything about mag limit, just scope limit.

 

[Target Forge]

Politics..... when FT pistol and Hunter class rifle FT were in their infancy, a handful of people were vocal enough to get those classes set to 12x for scopes. From what I can tell, having "been there" while all this was discussed on line at the time, these folks were of the opinion that NO ONE hunts with more than 12x, thus thats the limit set in the rules.

Added: Both classes were seen as a way to start a "run what ya brung" kinda thing, hoping to stop the pneumatic arms race that Open class had become, and allow folks to compete with gear they already had. And since most of us have a 12x or 16x scope laying around, that also factored into it.

Gotta wonder how many more would participate in Hunter class and PFT if the scope limits were removed

Hunter Class (rifle) has since been allowed to use 16x.

More importantly the scope CAN have greater magnification, but must be SET at 16X, that is what I tried to point out but somehow missed with my words, or folks read what they want. Never said increase the magnification but nearly every response I've gotten jumps to that conclusion. I was just trying to have an adult conversation about it, seems there was blood on the floor when I got here. Lol. As one poster said "I'm WRONG" I guess.

 

[AirNGasman]

Something I should point out to help you better understand, TF, is the 12X maximum scope capability rule in PFT pre-dates the HFT rule allowing any magnification scope set no higher than a 16X factory marking by several years. So what you'd like to see (essentially) is a change in the rule that's been in effect since AAFT recognized Pistol FT over a decade ago, that would (essentially) put every existing PFT competitor at equipment disadvantage unless they replace their scopes with more expensive ones. Right? When new PFT shooters can buy perfectly functional (for PFT) 12X maximum scopes for around $100, or spend plenty more if so inclined. Seems to me it is you that is proposing an equipment race.

Another thing I should point out is anyone can email suggestions to the AAFTA Board Of Governors. However should they decide to poll PFT shooters for feedback on raising the magnification limit, I will email them my opinions stated in the paragraph above. FYI and FWIW, I have written the AAFTA BoG a few times in the past myself to lobby my positions, successfully and unsuccessfully.

Don't take my WRONG! comment too personally, TF. It was aimed at everyone that wants to believe they know better than the AAFTA Board Of Governors. By the way, you omitted an important part of my quote, the "!"

Lastly, I'm always not only happy to discuss how FT rules came about but why they make so much sense; but much prefer to do so in conversation rather than endless keyboarding.

Regards,
Ron
254-253-1239

 

[qball]

 

[bvan]

My words NEVER asked for more magnification. You want a limit at 12X? Great set the scope for 12X, simple enough. Limiting it to ONLY scopes that max out at 12X that is the issue I'm trying to shed light on. It severely limits the shooters choice in buying a new unit. In the Rifle class I can use any scope I want, but it MUST be marked 16X or I have to go to the next lowest setting. I also cannot use the turrets so spending money on precise repeatable turrets makes no sense either. Not complicated, no arms race. Perhaps I just did not word the original post well enough?

Yep guess I misread your OP.

 

[0akhonor]

Thread side bar- pistol HFT is far more fun than any other discipline, just saying. Spend a little or go crazy with the $$$, the shooters skill is the determining factor. TF, I'll set up a PFT for us in Concord if you're willing.

 

[AirNGasman]

"pistol HFT is far more fun than any other discipline"

Glad to hear I'm not the only pistolero that finds PFT more fun than most anything you can do fully clothed, Oak.

But just as I've described Extreme FT as field target on streoids, so, also do I feel Extreme Pistol FT is like PFT on steroids. Almost another dimension. Reaching out with a pellet pistol to 55 yards, usually in very gusty winds (at my place), to drop BIG, heavy field targets.

Takes no small amount of target tuning (and modifications) to make a 2-3 foot tall, 30 pound field target function dependably with only 6-8 foot pounds of impact energy; but Man is it cool to see those things topple ever so s-l-o-w-l-y!

Wish you could join us, but maybe EPFT will eventually spread to your neck of the woods. What better excuse to buy (or build) a new toy?