Vertical Shooting with PCPs

[Ezana4CE]

I have searched the forums and threads and have not found a thread addressing this issue. I can’t see where or why anyone would encounter this style of shooting outside of pesting or hunting, but I could be limited in my thinking.

During the opening weeks of squirrel season I have been seeing and hearing many squirrels high up in the trees eating acorns, other nuts, and pine cones. Particularly in the pine trees I’ve seen squirrels close 25 yards up (according to the parallax knob on my FFP scope). While situating myself close to the tree trunk I’ve taken up to 3 shots at a squirrel way up there and they don’t move. I’m shooting JSB King 25.39 grain domed Diabolo pellets from an EDgun Lelya 2.0 in .25 caliber. I haven’t seen them flinch. I can’t figure out how I’m supposed to be aiming because I don’t know where my shots are hitting. I’m not sure if pellets are arcing and hitting pine needles or small branches on the way up or what.

While kneeling or standing I’m pretty much resting the rifle but almost on top of my shoulder. This positioning of the but feels awkward. I have shot at steep angles with success, but shooting vertically seems to be a different ballgame. With so many leaves still in the trees I’m sometimes limited to particular angles that I can take where I can see the desired kill zones clearly. I’ve only practiced shooting steep angles at pine cones. I could stand to affix an angle indicator to my scope to give me a better idea of the angles I’m referring too.

My question is, what has worked for some of you to hone your shots at a virtually vertical shooting angle? Is anyone taking these types of shots with success?

 

[ctshooter]

There is a really good video on Teds Holdover that goes over this exact topic and he shows examples shooting at different angles. Search for it on YouTube.

I can’t remember if it’s aim high or low but I recall something 2” @25 yards for every 15 degrees. I could be completely off here so look for the video.

 

[Miami Airgunner]

Typically, you'll have to aim low, as the trajectory would normally go over and then back down across the line of aim - but, the only way a bullet drops is from gravity - and you have, if you are shooting straight up, gravity acting as a deceleration force, not a drop force.

So, imagine that your gun now shoots a bullet that isn't affected by gravity.

Since most guns are aimed such that the bullet is going up as it leaves the gun, relative to the target, that means you'll need to aim low, since there is now, effectively, no gravity.
That being said, this all depends on your zero point - if you actually just set a good bore sight up, that should in theory, work well. If you're not sure how to do this, it's pretty easy, just pull the bolt, if you can, I'm not sure on the Lelya, but with the leshiy's its VERY easy to do, then look down barrel at target, see where it's pointed, and point your scope at the same spot. Adjust for left/right drift based on target impact, and leave elevation alone.
Boom, aim at tree rat, drop tree rat.

Of course, the easy solution to all of this is to just start shooting acorns or whatever to get a feel for where it actually hits, then go from there with your normal setup.
--

BTW: Gravity acts at 32 feet per second per second, so, you'll loose 32 fps in velocity for every second it travels. if shooting straight up.

In other words, you can effectively ignore gravity if you're shooting at, or close to, 90 degrees. (and that works UP or DOWN... Only difference is that you will actually preserve a tiny, tiny bit of velocity shooting down, and loose a bit shooting up)

Also, it occurs to me that I do think the rise in pellet trajectory, in inches, will be the distance(in feet) to target/FPS/384, more or less anyway, you need to account for scope placement over barrel here by using a starting point that is below the line of aim, and knowing where the 'zero' point is (there will only be one if shooting 90 degrees up or down, instead of the typical 2 zero points)

( 384 in the above equation is the acceleration of earth gravity of 32 fps/s converted to inches per second.. And yes, I know it's 32.2, but I'm not interested in thinking that hard for napkin math and physics. )

 

[rcs9250]

Put this in youtube search. Pops right up. It’s 7 years old.
“How to aim and shoot up hill and downhill.”
I just got back into squirrel hunting this year and everything has been ground level to 30 feet up, so no high angle yet.
But, a few years ago I hunted with a .25 Marauder and high angle shots were the norm. You’re right that with the buttstock on top of your shoulder the eye relief is way off and awkward. Even tried laying on my back, it worked but was weird. An adjustable buttstock would be helpful.

 

[Ezana4CE]

Put this in youtube search. Pops right up. It’s 7 years old.
“How to aim and shoot up hill and downhill.”
I just got back into squirrel hunting this year and everything has been ground level to 30 feet up, so no high angle yet.
But, a few years ago I hunted with a .25 Marauder and high angle shots were the norm. You’re right that with the buttstock on top of your shoulder the eye relief is way off and awkward. Even tried laying on my back, it worked but was weird. An adjustable buttstock would be helpful.

@rcs9250 Thanks. That was just what I was hoping to read or see! Didn’t think to check YouTube. Here’s the link in case anyone else is interested.

 

[luckybuckeye]

I think you have to adjust your aim for your scope height just like shooting a really close shot

 

[rcs9250]

I think you have to adjust your aim for your scope height just like shooting a really close shot

Yeah, been a while since I watched the video. I’m not sure a droan and unsupported rifle is the most definitive test, but Ted is a good shot.

 

[Ezana4CE]

@rcs9250 He used shooting sticks so that’s not too far from what I’d do at times. I’ll lean against trees, use sticks, or simply kneel on the ground.

 

[rcs9250]

@rcs9250 He used shooting sticks so that’s not too far from what I’d do at times. I’ll lean against trees, use sticks, or simply kneel on the ground.

Ahh, I didn’t recall the sticks. I don’t know how stable drones are at holding a rock solid position. I’m going to have to find a nice tall tree and do some experimenting of my own before snow flys.

 

[OldSpook]

There is ZERO drop when shooting vertically. The problem is that your bore and your cross hairs are not parallel. Your pellet will "rise" until it crosses LOS at some point BEFORE your zero range and then CONTINUE to "rise". The good news is that it is a linear relationship at that point and you can quickly adapt to any range. A quick heuristic is that you will be on ZERO at 2/3 of your normal zero range. You will be one "scope height" "high" at 4/3 your normal zero range and you will be 2 "scope heights" "high" at double your normal zero range. That's for straight up or straight down, as soon as you start shooting off 90 you start to see a little less effect than that because gravity comes back into play. HTH

 

[Ranchibi]

Like said above,, the more elevation, the less gravity/force works on a prjectiles large side (surface area forcing it downward), mostly on it's nose (smaller area than it's sides) so ithe projectile will have much less drop....so, as said above practice shooting closer kinda like shooting very close shots like 10-15yds.

 

[L.Leon]

Many, many moons ago when I first started hunting gray squirrels. I would get some serious neck aches from looking up so much. And sometimes the sun dazzling through the leaves? Would make me find a tree to sit against and then I was napping… Then eventually wake up, and it would take me a few moments to compose myself as to where I was. Needless to say on those days I came home empty handed.

 

[Miami Airgunner]

By the way, theory here says that this is the rare case where having your sight as close as possible to the bore axis actually does matter.

A set of low open sights is about the best you can get for this type of shooting.

 

[Arzrover]

Shoot a sighter on the bark somewhere

 

[fuznut]

Simple way to figure the amount of hold under required is to imagine a plumb line from target to ground or from target up to even with you. Estimate your distance from that line, aim at your target like it was that distance from you no matter how far away it actually is. Works same up or down. Ha or yeah dial to and hold dead on.

 

[PumaCarl]

Use Strelok Pro, if you input all of your gun's stats correctly and use a laser range finder (or a cell phone app) to get the angle it will show you exactly where to shoot.

 

[Ezana4CE]

Yeah, been a while since I watched the video. I’m not sure a droan and unsupported rifle is the most definitive test, but Ted is a good shot.

@rcs9250 Consumer drones like his Phantom are typically not completely stable while hovering. They waiver with wind gusts. I think that the movement in target setup like his can be thought of comparable to a squirrel perched upon a thin branch up in the canopy blowing in the wind. I like his test.

 

[JimD]

It looks like chairgun will not let you input an angle greater than 75 degrees. But for much of the pellet's path, the POI would high as Ted said. For my P35-177 at a 75 degree angle my POI would be low out to less than 20 yards (versus 25 at 0 incline), 2 inches high at about 33 yards and 4 inches high at about 50 yards. So if the OP was really shooting at a very steep angle, he probably needs to hold under.

I've shot several dozen squirrels out of trees, some were an estimated 30 to 50 feet up. But they were also at least 20 yards away horizontally. So the angle was not super steep. Under 45 degrees. Almost all have been 1 shot kills. I just hold based upon the horizontal distance to the tree they are in. If the tree is 20 yards away as it typically has been, I just hold where I want to hit. The fact that the height makes the distance to the target greater doesn't matter. The drop is a function of the horizontal distance. If I ever get a shot above 45 degrees, I guess I'd better hold a little low. I doubt I'll be shooting up into a tree 100-150 feet tall. But if I do, the hold under would be 2-4 inches. Probably a bit less for my P35-22. For a more typical 50 foot tree the hold under would be less than half an inch.

For me, the key think to remember is the drop is a function of the horizontal distance. I guess I need to add to that something like "at really steep angles hold a little low".

 

[Ezana4CE]

@JimD Shooting 25-50’ up at an angle is pretty routine. Even 3-6 yards out from the trunk hasn’t proved too difficult. I’ve nailed back-to-back DRTs like that. But sitting against the trunk or standing within 1-2 yards of the trunk and shooting virtually straight up has proven to be more of a challenge than I’d anticipated. Ted’s video is pretty helpful.

This year I’m able to identify and shoot at squirrels higher up in the canopy (or above the canopy as some pine trees penetrate the canopy created by hardwoods). I’m used to spotting squirrels in or around oak and hickory trees. They’re more difficult for me to see and track in pine trees. Some of the pines they’re in are pretty tall (around 75-80’) and I’m estimating their distance from me on the ground via the parallax knob on my scope. I intend to get a little practice in on some pinecones later today. I think what proves most difficult is that I frequently don’t seem to hit anything that makes an audible sound upon impact or to knock bark off of the tree so it’s tough to tell where the shots are flying. After watching the video I believe my shots have been flying high. I have the scope zeroed at 25 yards. As a couple of you stated, it appears that I need to hold-under.

 

[Ezana4CE]

Just shot a few mags at some pine cones in this tree. It’s around 75-80’ last I checked. I’m sure it’s grown some inches since I last checked. POA was around the tip of the red arrow. I held under 2 mil hashes which I’d probably 3-4 mil considering that there appears to be at least 2 mil worth of space between the crosshairs and the first holdunder mark in the Vector Veyron reticle.

This was the result of an offhand shot approx 75’ up holding under 2 mil hashmarks shooting an EDgun Lelya 2.0 in .25 caliber starting reservoir pressure approx 200 bar shot around 23-25 shots ending pressure approx 145 bar. Not sure which shot this was. Most likely around shot 20.

**Note it didn’t take 20 shots to hit the pine cone pictured below. I shot several pine cones at various angles working my way up to vertical shots. My point blank POA worked well for most shots. It probably took me around 5-6 shots to figure my hold shooting vertically from a kneeling position or from standing offhand. I then had to allow time for everything over head to fall down around me so I didn’t get debris in my eyes.