What is a "Cheap" gun - Cost of modifying an Avenger and a Modified Crosman 2240

[SkeeterHawk]

From the post Doux Technologies Plenum Upgrade for Air Venturi Avenger, I was asked this question:

Upgrading airguns in general is fun and rewarding but, the end game is still a low-end pcp that costs as much as a mid to high-end pcp. If you want accuracy and performance at a reasonable price, AEA is a very good option.

I can't speak to a comparable AEA gun to mine from looking at their product lines, I'll move to the low-mid-high point of this comment.

While I don't feel like I have done a whole lot to my gun, I have spent some money to get it to where it is. It looks a whole lot like an FX Crown at this point, which is $1800 on Utah Air right now. I'm not saying they are the same, but I am just giving a point of reference. Here is a picture of my Avenger today.

I'm going to round these off to the nearest $10 so that I can do this from my head and not pull receipts, and also I am not planning on including the DonnyFL, Accu-Tac, or the Element Optics in this as you can use whatever you want, but these are the "essentials" that are part of the gun.

• $350 Basic Avenger 22cal with synthetic stock
• $150 Doux Technologies bottle upgrade
• $100 Plenum Upgrade with tool
• $75 450CC Aluminum Bottle
• $50 Custom barrel band from JB3DPD.com
• $50 DonnyFL Barrel Adapter
• $50 Carbon fiber tubes to stiffen barrel and O-Rings for Spacers
• $60 Bottle clamp to Picatinny adapter
• $10 Replacement 60Duro Rubber Pads for Bottle Clamps to get better grippage
• $895 Total

Now that I have reduced my regulator pressure down to 2000psi (138bar), and my hammer spring down to two turns in, I would imagine that I will be getting over 100 shots on this thing at 40FPE before I need to refill. I can tweak my hammer spring from 819FPS to 905FPS on my current tune shooting 21.15grain pellets. I don't see what there is not to like about this. At $895, I am at just under 50% the cost of an FX Crown, and I would be REALLY SURPRISED if you can say that an FX Crown will perform twice as good as my Avenger as it is. I guess we will find out at RMAC because I am bringing this gun.

I have a Crosman 2240 sitting right beside my Avenger that easily has $500 in upgrades to it (Not counting the scope), and this is a $60 pistol! This said, I can shoot the UPC code off of a can at 75 yards consistently in 10+MPH cross winds...so it sure isn't performing like a pistol any more.

So what is a "Cheap" gun? What is a mid-range gun? We all know that a "high end" gun has an externally adjustable regulator and hammer spring. The Avenger checks those boxes, while starting life in the "cheap gun" category. Since FX recently started using two regulators, let's rule that out, as well as Daystate's electronic control. We all know that makes them "high end" in today's market, but what does "mid range" mean, and what does it take to push a "budget" gun up to those specifications when you have an externally adjustable regulator and hammer spring??

What are your thoughts? What does it take to transition a gun from "cheap" to "mid" to "high". I believe that the guy that took the EBR Big Bore was using a Benjamin Armada chassis with electronics integrated in, etc. He had a custom barrel, etc. Was that still a "Mid range" gun?

 

[tbullard]

AE Swede will soon be releasing a version of the bottle adapter that allows for a second regulator so even closer to your FX comparison.

 

[SkeeterHawk]

Whoa! Excellent! Thanks for the tip! I am so glad the AE Swede is supporting the Avenger so strongly, and what an impressive magazine!!!

 

[steve-l]

Your comparison is biased because it is incomplete. You have not considered your time nor all the risks you have incurred through through purchasing and shipping nor have you included the fact that the value of the end product is still that of an inexpensive gun. Economic justification does not exist. The only justification that can exist for ANY modification of anything is the joy you had in doing it and that cannot be quantified. 

 

[MileHighAirGunner]

I got a lot more tied up into each one of my Marauders and when someone gives me their unsolicited opinion about it, I just remind myself that Other peoples opinions are none of my business. 


Once you are clear about what you’re doing and why, other peoples opinions no longer matter. 

 

[steve-l]

I have no problem in people modifying their things. I do it all the time, but telling other people it is a savings is just BS. There are many reasons that can justify modifications, but it is NEVER economical. If a similar product already exists, it is always less expensive to buy. I have owned a machine shop for many years that only makes custom one-off products. The most common reason this is done is because their requirement can ONLY be met with a custom part. Telling people that their modification saves money is criminal, it never does.

 

[Greg_E]

What does two regulators get you? I don't understand the advantage over using one good regulator.

 

[MileHighAirGunner]

I have no problem in people modifying their things. I do it all the time, but telling other people it is a savings is just BS. There are many reasons that can justify modifications, but it is NEVER economical. If a similar product already exists, it is always less expensive to buy. I have owned a machine shop for many years that only makes custom one-off products. The most common reason this is done is because their requirement can ONLY be met with a custom part. Telling people that their modification saves money is criminal, it never does.

I think you misunderstood my post. To be clear it was directed towards the comment made to the OP in the Facebook group. Those kind of comments I find both annoying and unnecessary. I guess I didn’t take the OPs topic here as trying to promote that this was economical or a way to save money. I took it he was proud of his build and posted about it in the Facebook group and basically got told the AEA was better and for a more reasonable price and now he’s here trying to justify his Avenger build. Which he shouldn’t have to do. so my post was also just a reminder to the OP that they don’t have to justify anything you’re doing in this hobby to anyone.


I’m very happy and satisfied with my Marauders, but I’ve taken a lot of criticism about what I spent and done with them to the point I won’t talk about them here or anywhere else. And no, I have never promoted what I’ve done to my Marauders as being economical or a way for anyone to save money and I have never promoted anyones Feankengun builds as being economical or a way for anyone to save money either. Be happy with the way you want to enjoy this hobby and don’t let others make you feel bad about how you enjoy the hobby is what I’m trying to promote.

Let’s just have some fun and not take this stuff so seriously. That’s why we’re here

 

[WorriedMan]

Skeeter,

This is a conundrum which many hobbyists face, beginning with a less expensive, "starter" gun only to discover they desire the attributes and qualities of more expensive products. (Following this forum easily fosters this desire!) Most decide to either purchase the preferred product or modify an existing one. What influenced me, as a newbie, was a comment made by a reviewer who runs the YouTube site, Air Velocity Sport. While going through his airgun collection, he showed an inexpensive CO2 pistol he'd spent $1,500 modifying to PCP carbine status. His comment, something like this, was, "Looking back, I'd wish I'd just spent the money on a $1,500 PCP." Food for thought, WM

 

[Jasonmc]

I've done many low end (budget) pcp rifles over the years... loved every minute of it. They looked great and all around performance was improved.. do what ya do..its your hobby and your money... but it's a rabbit hole... before diving to deep into it do yourself a favor and buy the rifle you think yours is comparing to... if it's the crown you mentioned as a comparison... dude your in for an eye opener. 

 

[SkeeterHawk]

Wow! There is so much to "unpack" here that there is no point in trying to quote anyone in particular but to talk in generalities.

While I agree that you can't just put the price of this modified gun next to the price of this higher-end stock gun directly because there is (as mentioned) the labor that you "donated" and the risk, etc. I agree with others, that this is a "pride in ownership" thing too. Not only have I made the upgrades myself, I now know all of the intimate details of my gun. If I blew a seal during a competition, I wouldn't hesitate to take it apart. If I had an Impact MK3 that I had only tweaked the hammer spring on it blow a seal during a match, I'm going home because I wouldn't know everything about that gun and now I would have to go learn it. Granted that experience would be valuable next time the gun blew a seal during a match, but I personally would rather take the gun apart while upgrading it so that I know everything about it. The pressure isn't on when the gun is on my workbench, but it sure would be on the shooting bench.

To summarize, I agree with the group that these modifications were educational for me, so this was adding a lot of value to my personal experience of owning this gun. It appears that I value this experience more than the ease of spending more money up front and just taking the gun out of the box and shooting it. My two-cents. It will be spent in the after-market, apparently.

 

[SkeeterHawk]

What does two regulators get you? I don't understand the advantage over using one good regulator.

Hey Greg_E

I'm probably going to "slaughter" this description, but your question was rather nested in here.

I would like to see the data that justifies the cost, but the theory is that if you have two regulators, you can keep a small differential between the two and that keeps the head-pressure on the second regulator more consistent, allowing more consistent refilling with respect to pressure and time to fill the plenum. The first regulator is seeing the big differential pressure, and if it varies by a couple bar as you are draining the bottle, it will make that effect less for the second regulator...allowing more consistency.

I am sure that you will see this in the Extreme Spread and RSDs in the numbers, but you hear a lot of buzz from airgunners that those numbers being so tight doesn't directly relate to performance. On my 2240, I have seen variance of 12FPS or more when taking the gun out in the cold, and it is still putting pellet on pellet at 50 yards.

Again, I am sure that someone with more experience will be able to give some data to back this up, but I am personally hard-pressed to think that it would increase the actual shooting performance of the gun such to justify the cost of throwing another regulator on there. In the 2021 RMAC, Nikolay Boldov was running an Impact MK3 with the front regulator all the way open, and this is the guy that won EBR in 2019 with a completely unregulated gun. He didn't do as well when he had two regulators at his disposal, but was victorious with no regulators in his gun. So, he is a good shooter, regardless of the price tag on his gun and that is what this all boils down to.

 

[tsmith]

Your comparison is biased because it is incomplete. You have not considered your time nor all the risks you have incurred through through purchasing and shipping nor have you included the fact that the value of the end product is still that of an inexpensive gun. Economic justification does not exist. The only justification that can exist for ANY modification of anything is the joy you had in doing it and that cannot be quantified.

this brings up a point i see in the classifieds ALOT! you will see a 5 year old gun bought for $350. it was highly modified (a nice job) and the seller is asking $500 or $600! this is just an example. i also see it more commonly on high end guns. you just dont find good deals in the classifieds like you use to.

 

[Vetmx]

If you don’t mind having an expensive cheap gun, it can be a heck of a lot of fun building one. I’ve done it plenty of times and learned things that helped me with my higher end guns. But one thing is for certain, the Crown guy will always have an expensive gun, even when he sells it. You will always have a cheap gun. That’s why I’ve kept all my builds. And because they are much cooler than the cookie cutter guns with mass produced bolt on do dads. Now it’s time to tell is how it performs at various distances. What it likes and doesn’t like. Is it a bench gun or does it still handle pretty well with that heavy bottle.

 

[biohazardman]

Well I have the disease also and yes it can get spendy. But it is quite entertaining and you learn allot from the builds.

If you spend enough $ time and energy into them you can usually equal the mid and high priced guns in accuracy and power.

Like stated though they will not likely be worth the money one has into them which is not a problem for most of us.

Probly takes a regulator and some trigger werq and often as not a new barrel and more to make a cheap gun able to compete with the mid to high level guns.

Here are a few I have done over the decades. Not worth anything near what I have into them but makes no difference to me.

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/maximus-victim-of-the-next-mod/?referrer=1

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/still-another-mod-for-the-ratgun-and-once-again-the-true-cost-of-a-60-crosman/?referrer=1

https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/the-true-cost-of-my-60-crosman-2240/?referrer=1

 

[SkeeterHawk]

If you don’t mind having an expensive cheap gun, it can be a heck of a lot of fun building one. I’ve done it plenty of times and learned things that helped me with my higher end guns. But one thing is for certain, the Crown guy will always have an expensive gun, even when he sells it. You will always have a cheap gun. That’s why I’ve kept all my builds. And because they are much cooler than the cookie cutter guns with mass produced bolt on do dads.

I think that was well said, and Biohazardman agrees with the basic premise. I am good with not being able to sell this gun. Heck, my warranty is "technically" not up for another 3+ months...as if I could/would make a claim at this point.

Now it’s time to tell is how it performs at various distances. What it likes and doesn’t like. Is it a bench gun or does it still handle pretty well with that heavy bottle.

I plan on this gun primarily being a bench gun, so I have been pretty liberal with adding weight. It is weighing in at 12.4 pounds right this second, with the bipod and scope attached, so I am over double the stock weight now. Also, when I hydrodip the stock, I am planning on adding 2 pounds of electricians duct seal inside the stock to make it more solid and add some more weight. This will bring me up to about 14.4 pounds if I can get it all in. Right now, the balance is more toward the front with the 450CL Aluminum bottle on there, but the added weight in the stock should help balance it out. Though I am setting it up for benchrest, I plan to use it in Precision and Speed at RMAC. I'll have to verify that the barrel stiffening will allow me to take the bipod off for the standing competitions.

Anyway, I am wanting to keep the power up to around 40FPE, so I am sticking with the heavier pellets (21.14gr, 25.39, etc.)Though I haven't made it out to 100 yards yet, at <75 yards, it keeps coming back to the H&N Baracuda Match in 5.51 diameter head. The 5.52 diameter head in the Baracuda doesn't perform quite a well in grouping, but the velocity is exactly the same as the 5.51diameter heads, so I can use the 5.52diameter for test velocity with. The next best performing pellet is the FX 25.4gr. The JSB Monster Redesigned 25.39gr did OK at 75 yards, but was about a 1.5" group, where the H&N and FX were 0.75" or less. The regular JSB Monsters flew all over the place at below 800FPS, so I wasn't going trans-sonic or anything. Only two of five even hit the box with the targets on it. You could clearly see them sailing all over the place.

The best performing slug that I have found for this barrel is the JSB Knock Out in 0.216 diameter. I haven't tried any Zan, but all of the FX, H&N, JSB, and Patriot were in the mix along with a few NSA, so this was a pretty good test.

Today was a pretty windy day (12mph sustained with 15+ MPH gusts), and I had to re-zero my scope anyway, so I put a few targets out to 50 yards. I tried a "dirty" ten-dime challenge, and got the results below.

I hit 5 of 10 with one "X". Two "just broke the line", but the shoot-n-see dot turned yellow, so it counts!

I dumped a whole 10-shot mag at a shoot and see target to see how I could read the wind. I sucked, and got a 1.25" to maybe 1.5" group:

I am glad that I am not alone in my sickness. This forum makes one heck of a support group for addicts like ourselves ;-)

 

[marquette]

I think for many of us it’s getting what you want. I want this caliber at this weight but no one offers that so I convert a gun. Or it could be power, looks, lack of power, fit or any other preference. Sometimes it’s a journey to decide what you want. I’m on my third stock on a Maximus still not sure if it’s right. It’s to each his/her own decision to modify or buy already built.

 

[boscoebrea]

You could buy a great cheap PCP pistol like aProd,Crosman 1720,or 1701....put a cheap or expensive carbine stock on and kick butt.

Say new PCP is under $450,stock $100 to $200....add a scope and the satisfaction is greater than an expensive pcps.

Or a $200 pcps pistol and $50 stock,how you going to beat that for the money?

I rather kustomize...

 

[Trucker3573]

All is true and great as long as you plan to keep it. Try to sell it and I can guarantee it is still all a avenger under there. No one on this planet is going to pay anywhere in the neighborhood of 800-900 for an avenger. Is what it is. 

 

[Gatorproof]

I really don't have a clue about modding an affordable gun.. I have a couple old school Hatsans from back in the day.. I have a
couple air cylinders for them and considered adding regulators and suppressors ect.. But then I thought maybe I should just buy what I really want.


I am just asking you experienced folks.. But rather then creating a $800ish starter rifle.. Would it maybe make more sense on a used Fx with the X barrel..

I see this used FX Dreamline $899.. It can be modded with factory parts.. If I wanted to sell it.. I am guessing it would hold its
Valve OK.. maybe more so then a '' created gun''.

What you ya' ll think..