What is a "Cheap" gun - Cost of modifying an Avenger and a Modified Crosman 2240

[SkeeterHawk]

There seems to be varied opinions on the double regs like the ones AE Swede developed for the Avenger bottle conversion. What do you all think?

We would assume that if FX decided to go with two on the Maverick and Impact (that I know of, so far), that there was a good bit of research that went into adding them. I was just watching some of Matt Dubbers older videos earlier today where he was talking about a change in only a few FPS would change the harmonic nodes, and thereby the accuracy. I didn't think that my Ghetto Harmonic Barrel Tuner would make a difference either, but it did. All of my bottles are M18x1.5 thread, like the Huma External Regulator, so I have been really tempted to get one to see what difference it would make, but the Huma ones only go to 250 bar max pressure...which really isn't useful for this experiment since I would have to have double-the headroom before I fell off the regulator. I didn't see any technical data on A.E. Swede's site on the regulator to know if it goes to 300 bar.

 

[357cal]

Earlier in this thread i posted chono numbers before i install Wayne Reid's 16.5cc plenum, This is what i got.

 

[SkeeterHawk]

This is what i got

Impressive! You went from (roughly) 52FPE to 65FPE, so you are up about 125%. Nice!

 

[Gatorproof]

Well guys.. This thread caused me to pick up a like new wood stock Avenger in. 25..the seller said it shot low poi..

I took to the range today.. Leveled and plum bobbed the scope..

Shot it and the pellet hit low I mean so low.. I maxed out the Hawke Sf 30 scope up turret.. Plus I had to hold 5 mil dots to hit the bullseye..

It grouped OK. But man.. So who here has a clue why it could be that far off.. The gun looks flawless.. one of the mags was still wrapped up in plastic. The paperwork said it is 10 months old.

Thanks
Be Well All

 

[SkeeterHawk]

Well, there could be a few things going on here. My biggest suspect is that the Pic rails on the top are off. You can get a pair of Saber Tactical rails like I have that may take care of it. This said, the ST rails don't have any MOA adjustment, which is what you need. Are you shooting at 100+ Yards or so? I had to get some adjustable rings for my Element scope, which I am not sure is the gun or the scope per STKO. Either way, if you get some adjustable rings, or a 20 MOA scope rail, it should take care of it, as long as the POI is consistently low.

The last thing that I would (possibly) suspect would be that the barrel is canted, because remember that the end is floating inside the shroud as OEM. You may be able to just install a DonnyFL moderator adapter for The Avenger to help alleviate this problem. I don't think that you can spin the barrel to index it for The Avenger, but if you can, I would absolutely do that. Sorry for not remembering the specifics about this aspect of my gun . I always mark the index on my barrels when taking my guns apart so that they go back together the same way...so I don't recall if I had to with The Avenger or not.

My experience (though limited) is that the Avenger is consistent. If your POI is changing, check it on a chrono. Your pellets are probably spiraling. Stick to the 850FPS range to make sure that you are consistent and push it up if your pellet (or slug) allows.

I hope that this helps. I have 1000's and 1000's of pellets through my Avenger, and it is VERY solid at this point, but I have the Plenum Upgrade, and Carbon Fiber on the barrel, etc. Shortening the shroud with the DonnyFL adapter so that is snugly surrounds the barrel really helps the fliers...not to mention adding carbon fiber to the barrel.

In short, The Avenger has lots of potential, but I'd recommend looking at some of the mods that we enthusiastics have done. I don't think having a consistently low POI is a problem. Just get your scope to adjust to it.

Cheers!

Jonathan

 

[SkeeterHawk]

I just happened to think that you should unscrew the little plastic cover off of the end of the barrel to make sure that the pellet isn't clipping that part. This is a simple thing you could try to make sure that isn't a problem.

 

[Gatorproof]

Great thanks so much.. I ordered nice set of adjustable rings today.. 20 Moa I think. I actually received a Donny adapter with the gun. I just didn't have it on today.. At my local range they have a separate air gun range that no one uses during the week..

I had it all to myself today.. I hung a plum Bob to center scopes on a few guns. I set up the chrono as well..
The only thing is that it's a 10 yard range.. So the guns I realigned scopes on. shot quarter to half in groups..

But the Avenger shot maybe 6 inches low.. Maxed
out turret and 5 dots hold over at 10 yards. Crazy.. Would have to point it at the sun to shoot 100 yards... Lol.

I did run across a YouTube where a guy sanded and sealed the wood stock so that it didn't touch the tube and it fixed the problem.. I will look at that tommorrow.

The seller called me and mentioned that he switched the wood stock off his. 22 to this. 25.. He said he had a problem with that gun also.. Just not as extreme.
So cleaning out that wood stock can't hurt.

I wonder if I removed the stock and just shot with the action exposed.. To see how that shot.. Would that be sensible..

I am thinking those rings should be a big help.. The seller said that the poi was not anything but low.

I ''may'' end up selling the wood stock and converting over to an AE Swede kit. It appears he came out with Gen 2 kit.. Double the money but looks better... I ordered one of his mags.. Heard compliments about the AV ones.

Thanks for taking your time to help

Be Well All

 

[SteveV]

You could buy a great cheap PCP pistol like aProd,Crosman 1720,or 1701....put a cheap or expensive carbine stock on and kick butt.

Say new PCP is under $450,stock $100 to $200....add a scope and the satisfaction is greater than an expensive pcps.

Or a $200 pcps pistol and $50 stock,how you going to beat that for the money?

I rather kustomize...

Yep boscoebreaux, you hit the nail on the head -

And one more advantage of this approach is doing things INCREMENTALLY - easier on the pocketbook if you're old and on a fixed income lol -

 

[SkeeterHawk]

But the Avenger shot maybe 6 inches low.. Maxed
out turret and 5 dots hold over at 10 yards. Crazy.. Would have to point it at the sun to shoot 100 yards... Lol.

Whoa!! My goodness, to be off 6" at only 10 yards is insane!

I wonder if I removed the stock and just shot with the action exposed.. To see how that shot.. Would that be sensible..

I don't see why you couldn't/shouldn't do that. You can take the barrel band in the front off too. You may want to strip the shroud off and just fire it with the barrel hanging out in outer space. While in there, I'd recommend that you take the barrel out and roll it across a really flat surface to make sure it is true.

I'd also think that it would be a good idea to throw a bore-sighter on there while you have the shroud off. That may reveal something as well.

I've got the same rings, and they work great out to 100 yards with the rear ring only raised up one "click". This said, my gun never shot that far off.

It sounds like you will get the the bottom of this, so please keep us updated. I'd like to know what can cause a gun to go that far off.

PS - Nice looking, very personalized collection @SteveV !

 

[Goldwing]

Here you go, real cheap

 

[Gatorproof]

Whoa!! My goodness, to be off 6" at only 10 yards is insane!


I don't see why you couldn't/shouldn't do that. You can take the barrel band in the front off too. You may want to strip the shroud off and just fire it with the barrel hanging out in outer space. While in there, I'd recommend that you take the barrel out and roll it across a really flat surface to make sure it is true.

I'd also think that it would be a good idea to throw a bore-sighter on there while you have the shroud off. That may reveal something as well.

I've got the same rings, and they work great out to 100 yards with the rear ring only raised up one "click". This said, my gun never shot that far off.

It sounds like you will get the the bottom of this, so please keep us updated. I'd like to know what can cause a gun to go that far off.

PS - Nice looking, very personalized collection @SteveV !

Thanks Brother..

Helpful info for sure.. I should be ready to go to the range again next week.. Then I can work on the mystery..

Going to hog out that stock a bit to see if I can make sure it is not actually touching the tube.

Be Well All

 

[Gatorproof]

Hi folks..

Got the low POI handled on the Avenger. The adjustable rings got it done.. I have never had a scope issue before so it was all new to me.

After I stepped back and saw the actual barrel Point way down compared to the scope.. The light bulb came on.. Dah

I aimed the barrel by eye.. Took couple shots.. Then used the adjustable rings to solve the problem..

I also removed the 3D barrel band.. The shroud then matched the spacing between the action and the factory barrel band.. I removed the factory (dollar store quality) shroud flimsy plastic baffle.. Replaced it with the Donny adapter that came with the gun.

When I was discovering all this.. I had a million to one event.. a pellet just feel low and caught the top skinny outside cover of my brand new Pro chrono..

THEN IT FLIPPED 180° and came back and tapped me just above my lip.. Dang.. then when I set it up again yesterday.. The chrono had a rattle.. Looked at it again a saw a hole just below where the old one hit..

How lucky was that it didn't wipe it out on the 1st day.. No.. this was not my first chrono.. Smile.

Now 2 new issues.. The first is a bummer so far.
The new AE Swede 15 shot 25 cal extended mag.. does not fit under my brand new adjusting rings.. Their website saz medium rings work fine..

Does anyone else use this mag? It is far superior looking to the junky factory mags..

The 2nd issue is a reg thing.. If the tank pressure is above 3000psi the reg stays at the 2200 it is set at.. When the tank drops below that., the reg resets to 1550 and stays there..

She still chronos 880 with hammer spring maxed in.. Any suggests?

Be Well All

 

[SkeeterHawk]

Thanks for the update @Gatorproof

After I stepped back and saw the actual barrel Point way down compared to the scope.. The light bulb came on..

I figured that with a POI off that much, that it would be obvious with a bore-sighter. You didn't even need one to figure it out. Kudos!

THEN IT FLIPPED 180° and came back and tapped me just above my lip.. Dang.

That really sucks! How far away was the Chrony? I'm glad you are OK!!!

The new AE Swede 15 shot 25 cal extended mag.. does not fit under my brand new adjusting rings.. Their website saz medium rings work fine..

I can't speak for this one as I adapted my stock mags to work better by tightening the spring by drilling another small hole for it to rest in, and then JB Welding it in place. I have six mags that feed reliably now...but they are still cheap. You could try to bring your rings all the way up, and then just lower the front one as much as you can get away with to try to make it fit??

The 2nd issue is a reg thing.. If the tank pressure is above 3000psi the reg stays at the 2200 it is set at.. When the tank drops below that., the reg resets to 1550 and stays there..

Now THIS is a weird one!! Perhaps someone else may have some insight, but I would suspect your regulator itself...assuming that this change in pressure is translated to a change in velocity on the Chrony and that it isn't just the gauge going wacky...though I'd be surprised that it would be that consistent. It must be the regulator. I'd suspect the Neoprene seal? Here is a video of of James from STKO talking about a problem with the regulator that may be what you are seeing.

Again, hopefully someone else may have some insight into the regulator "jumping" like that, but it sounds like it is reseating, and I'd think that could only be caused by some imperfections on that seal.

Glad your Chrony survived!...and you did!

 

[357cal]

About the scope rings,I have high profile rings and i love my AE Swede 15 shot mag for the Avenger 25cal. The scope is a Hawke Vantage 3x9 -50mm.

 

[Gatorproof]

First.. the chrono was set out 12 to 15 feet. When the pellet hit me.. it was extremely light tap. It actually took a second for me to actually figure out what happened.. Cant get much luckier then that..

The Avenger is not in the house for a photo.. The space needed from the height of the rings to that which is needed.. appears to be almost and inch. I will try to reset that next time the gun comes out of the case. (Thanks to 35cal for your photo) AE Swede mag. It looks to be on par for quality to the FX mags I waited a month for and paid 50 bucks a pop for.

The reg thing does not seem to be effecting the FPS readings. 1550psi and 2200psi or any change in accuracy.
Check the photos of my log book and the chrono chart. The change in speed is due from hammer spring adjustments. toward the end of the string anyway.. if anyone spots something.. I would be happy for the input.

I turned in the hammer setting in 1/4 turn at a time. There were only 5 quarters left on adjustment.

The irony of all this is funny.. When I found this thread.. I only owned some old Hatsans all in 25cal. Since then i bought a same as new FX Dreamline and the same as new wood stock Avenger. I was not happy with my AT44 Hatsan for target groups.

When I modded the AT44 .. a simple addition of a access hole exactly where the Avenger hammer adjust spot is. I tried to adjust the hammer with a 4" allen key (needs a 6") which messed up the adjustment and I had no idea where it was set. My log book showed it shooting at about 885psi from before.

When I chronoed it .. it was hot.. like 1015 down to 965fps hot.. but the drop was in one 9 round mag (needs reg bad). When I got everything sited.. went to the 50y range. That old Hatsan one holed all 5 rounds in nickel sized hole. Out performing the FX 22cal (shooting JSBs 18g) and the 25cal Avenger shooting JSB 25g.. both which shot slightly less tight MOA.. get this.. the AT44 was shooting with Benjamin 27g.. 10$ a tin pellets.

This has me thinking that close to 2000$ for new to me guns and accessories.. might not have been necessary. With that said.. I would do it again..

Be Well All

 

[DesertSilver]

I bought a used liberty from dairy boy for $120 shipped. It was leaking which dairy boy said right in the ad. I've probably have $350 more invested plus who knows how many hrs working on it but to me it's totally worth it. I don't ever figure to sell it so getting my money back isn't a issue. I have something unique that at most 100 people have. I have all of Duy's mods done to it and like how reliable it is since modding it. I know that rifle inside and out. My next mod I'm going to try is making a wood stock for it out of a juniper pine tree trunk that I cut down.

 

[SkeeterHawk]

With that said.. I would do it again..

who knows how many hrs working on it but to me it's totally worth it

It is awesome that you are both saying the same thing, and I totally agree. I don't regret any of the mods I have done because I have gained invaluable knowledge from doing them.

@Gatorproof , I can't say that I completely understand your notes, but looking at the shot string, I believe gives some information. It looks like your regulator is creeping like heck. Your first shot was only 607FPS, which is really low. I am assuming this is because the regulator let the bottle pressure onto the valve, so it shut really quickly and you only got a little velocity. It stayed consistent while you were shooting, and from shot 16 to 17, you took a 12 minute break, and the velocity shot back up. You might have an issue with the gauge as well (It is an M8x1 thread, BTW), but you definitely have pretty clear signs of the regulator creeping up. I saw a video somewhere, where I believe Tyler Patner (The Avenger product manager) said that you can flip the Delrin seal to get you by until you get a new one...but I have never disassembled the regulator that far, so I can't speak from experience. I hope that this helps.

 

[Gatorproof]

It is awesome that you are both saying the same thing, and I totally agree. I don't regret any of the mods I have done because I have gained invaluable knowledge from doing them.

@Gatorproof , I can't say that I completely understand your notes, but looking at the shot string, I believe gives some information. It looks like your regulator is creeping like heck. Your first shot was only 607FPS, which is really low. I am assuming this is because the regulator let the bottle pressure onto the valve, so it shut really quickly and you only got a little velocity. It stayed consistent while you were shooting, and from shot 16 to 17, you took a 12 minute break, and the velocity shot back up. You might have an issue with the gauge as well (It is an M8x1 thread, BTW), but you definitely have pretty clear signs of the regulator creeping up. I saw a video somewhere, where I believe Tyler Patner (The Avenger product manager) said that you can flip the Delrin seal to get you by until you get a new one...but I have never disassembled the regulator that far, so I can't speak from experience. I hope that this helps.

It is awesome that you are both saying the same thing, and I totally agree. I don't regret any of the mods I have done because I have gained invaluable knowledge from doing them.

@Gatorproof , I can't say that I completely understand your notes, but looking at the shot string, I believe gives some information. It looks like your regulator is creeping like heck. Your first shot was only 607FPS, which is really low. I am assuming this is because the regulator let the bottle pressure onto the valve, so it shut really quickly and you only got a little velocity. It stayed consistent while you were shooting, and from shot 16 to 17, you took a 12 minute break, and the velocity shot back up. You might have an issue with the gauge as well (It is an M8x1 thread, BTW), but you definitely have pretty clear signs of the regulator creeping up. I saw a video somewhere, where I believe Tyler Patner (The Avenger product manager) said that you can flip the Delrin seal to get you by until you get a new one...but I have never disassembled the regulator that far, so I can't speak from experience. I hope that this helps.

thanks again..
Notes translations .. Strikes= Hatsan vortex STRIKES pellets.. 999999999999

 

[Gatorproof]

Thanks again for your efforts.

Notes translations.. I think. I dont understand them myself most of the time, lol.
Strikes are Hatsan Vortex pellets,, I use cheaper pellets for chrono and basic siting. The STRIKES are 7 bucks a tin 24g close to the in weight JSB 25's.Then I switch over to fine tune.. so the changes in the shot string seems to come from mostly hammer adjustments.. Also the last 2 or 3 quarter turns in to the bottom out point . Yields little difference.

Looked at some you tubes also.. on the regulator issues.

The funny thing is... the accuracy at distances so far tested to 50 yards.. is fine. Does not seem to matter .. So not sure if the gauge is wonky.. I have another gauge from my old dive tank fill block. The gun is still in the case and hopefully I can get to it soon.

on another note.. my carbon fiber Scott tank is expiring. it is a 4500psi unit. Problem as most know.. only provides high pressure fill for a short time.

I picked up a couple more Honeywell expired tanks and a Yong Heng unit.
With that said, it is non-branded but has a HG manufactures build tag.
The one I received was packaged perfectly but...

I suspect that the unit is a 2nd, that HG didnt want to brand.. I can not recommend Creworks brand/ The cover had rust bubbling 6 inchs long in 2 places,, They are sending new cover but now the temp gauge does not work,, I cant even set it up. So I do believe it is a factory 2nd.

Be Well All

 

[SkeeterHawk]

I adapted my stock mags to work better by tightening the spring by drilling another small hole for it to rest in, and then JB Welding it in place.

I'm quoting myself here, but to give @Gatorproof the information (and anyone else that wants it), I posted my fix for the Avenger magazines here. I hope that this is helpful to someone. It sure has improved my Avenger ownership experience for practically zero dollars.