Whats the sense of referencing MOA?

[Elgreco]

Just taking clue from another post here, what is the sense of referencing MOA accuracy for a rifle if your shooting is less than a 100 yards? With that reasoning I can shoot my air rifle at 25 yards and if I shoot say a 0.1 inch group my rifle would be considered a 0.1 MOA accuracy riffle?Please let's be serious, for me, when referencing MOA accuracy for a rifle, the testing is done at 100 yards. Not 50, not 10 not 75.

 

[Sqwirl57]

A 0.1" group at 25yds would basically be a 0.4 MOA group. A 0.25" group at 25yds would be about 1 MOA. Minute of angle (MOA) is an angular measurement and works at any range.

 

[Sqwirl57]

Here is a crude drawing for what "MOA" looks like from 0-100yds. That triangle just keeps expanding outwards as far out as you want to go. At 200yds it would be almost 2.1" wide. At 1000yds it would be almost 10.5". Any group size that fits inside the shaded area is MOA or better for that given range.

 

[dgeesaman]

Please let's be serious, for me, when referencing MOA accuracy for a rifle, the testing is done at 100 yards. Not 50, not 10 not 75.

Nice sentiment but that’s a “you” issue.

For rimfire the most common test distance is 50y. For centerfire it’s 100y. For airgun (other than 10m match airguns) I don’t think there is any assumed distance, so if the accuracy conversation doesn’t include shot count and distance, I pretty much back away and save my brain cells for something with substance.

 

[rsfrid]

Nice sentiment but that’s a “you” issue.

For rimfire the most common test distance is 50y. For centerfire it’s 100y. For airgun (other than 10m match airguns) I don’t think there is any assumed distance, so if the accuracy conversation doesn’t include shot count and distance, I pretty much back away and save my brain cells for something with substance.

Yeah. And then there is pistol vs. rifle. Pistols almost always are shot at near ranges compared to rifles. Then there are high power vs low power. There are many more issues with air power or CO2 power than with powder burners.

 

[Elgreco]

A 0.1" group at 25yds would basically be a 0.4 MOA group. A 0.25" group at 25yds would be about 1 MOA. Minute of angle (MOA) is an angular measurement and works at any range.

Stand corrected ,that's what I actually meant and I already knew that but point being you can't test at short distances and then translate the results to whatever MOA. Universaly when you say I have a sub moa capable rifle automatically it's assumed that the testing was done at 100 yards.
A rifle that shoots 1/2 inch groups at 50 doesn't translate 1 inch at 100 yards. At that distance other things.come to play as well ( projectile, scope, shooter, wind)

 

[OldSpook]

Stand corrected ,that's what I actually meant and I already knew that but point being you can't test at short distances and then translate the results to whatever MOA. Universaly when you say I have a sub moa capable rifle automatically it's assumed that the testing was done at 100 yards.
A rifle that shoots 1/2 inch groups at 50 doesn't translate 1 inch at 100 yards. At that distance other things.come to play as well ( projectile, scope, shooter, wind)

You are talking about assumptions that YOU make. Other people do not make the same assumptions.

 

[Chuck-in-Ohio]

Stand corrected ,that's what I actually meant and I already knew that but point being you can't test at short distances and then translate the results to whatever MOA. Universaly when you say I have a sub moa capable rifle automatically it's assumed that the testing was done at 100 yards.
A rifle that shoots 1/2 inch groups at 50 doesn't translate 1 inch at 100 yards. At that distance other things.come to play as well ( projectile, scope, shooter, wind)

Your 'automatic assumption' of 100 yards is a powder burner mindset.

With airguns it is 'automatically assumed' to be 25 or 50 unless specifically stated otherwise.

If someone is posting in the ELR forum, then your assumption of 100 yards would be solid, but in the FT forum the assumption would be 50 or 55 yards.
Benchrest would be 25 or 50 yards unless specifically stated that they are shooting ASA, RMAC or EBR style benchrest at 100.

I do agree with you 100% on an assumption that a rifle that shoots MOA at 50 will also do it at 100 is not a safe assumption at all. It may have the potential, but the proof is on the paper so to speak.
A powder burner may single hole at 100 and fall clear apart at 600. Same deal with airguns, only the ranges to target are reduced in accordance with their lower power levels.

Basically, it is an easy qualifier to use for a given range, and darn near everyone understands what MOA represents at a given range.

 

[Cloud9AG]

MOA is not related to any specific range, because it is angular measurement it can be applied to any distance. Just report it properly based on the range you are shooting, and there should be no issues.

 

[Richieg]

The term is used by many who use it as a measure of accuracy at ANY given range. Instead of saying, my rifle can shoot coke cans at 100 yards, you could say your rifle shoots 3 MOA @ 100 yards.

 

[Telephonepete]

What is wrong with 3/4 inch group at 50 yds. 2 inch group at 100yds. Why mins of angle.

 

[c_m_shooter]

Just taking clue from another post here, what is the sense of referencing MOA accuracy for a rifle if your shooting is less than a 100 yards? With that reasoning I can shoot my air rifle at 25 yards and if I shoot say a 0.1 inch group my rifle would be considered a 0.1 MOA accuracy riffle?Please let's be serious, for me, when referencing MOA accuracy for a rifle, the testing is done at 100 yards. Not 50, not 10 not 75.

MOA (or MIL) is an angular measurement. It will scale to any distance. It will be about 1/4" at 25 yards, 1/2" at 50, or 5 inches at 500 yards if you want.

 

[dgeesaman]

What is wrong with 3/4 inch group at 50 yds. 2 inch group at 100yds. Why mins of angle.

Minutes or mils of angle are neither metric nor imperial units, for one.

Second, it’s easier to convert to expected accuracy at shorter or near distances. If I shoot at 100y and my friend shoots overseas at 100m, the distances are close enough to compare directly in moa.

As was mentioned, it’s risky business to extrapolate precision to longer ranges using moa, but it is a useful starting point.

Angle can also be used to manage other factors like drift and drop. Want to compare the ballistic complexity of shooting centerfire to airgun - consider shooting them at equal moa drop. Or equal moa wind drift.

Angle also makes reticle geometry easy to manage. And scope adjustments are measured in minutes (or mils) per click, not inches per 100y.

But really none of these works without context. Shot group count, distance, indoor/outdoor, shot with or without wind flags, off a bench or offhand, open sights or scope, etc, it all matters.

ETA: moa Precision is almost always center to center. Rimfire lot testing, for example, is outside-to-outside. And some competition targets are scored worst-edge. So using angle eliminates that variable.

 

[.20calguy]

Just taking clue from another post here, what is the sense of referencing MOA accuracy for a rifle if your shooting is less than a 100 yards? With that reasoning I can shoot my air rifle at 25 yards and if I shoot say a 0.1 inch group my rifle would be considered a 0.1 MOA accuracy riffle?Please let's be serious, for me, when referencing MOA accuracy for a rifle, the testing is done at 100 yards. Not 50, not 10 not 75.

There's a 1MOA shot for you, a .25 inch airsoft pellet for a target, at 75 feet, or 25 yards.

 

[pbike257]

MOA (or MIL) is an angular measurement. It will scale to any distance. It will be about 1/4" at 25 yards, 1/2" at 50, or 5 inches at 500 yards if you want.

No, Mil is not MOA, Miliradians are another measurement and it is based on a yard (36") at a 1000 yards. simplified, that's 3.6" at a hundred yards...

I accuracy language, that Artillery compared to precision. Even when you go to 1/10th Mil adjustments, Your scope moves .36" for every click at 100 yards. so that's close to 3 1/8th minute clicks on a target scope, again that's artillery adjustment compared to precision.

 

[18.13]

No, Mil is not MOA, Miliradians are another measurement and it is based on a yard (36") at a 1000 yards. simplified, that's 3.6" at a hundred yards...

I accuracy language, that Artillery compared to precision. Even when you go to 1/10th Mil adjustments, Your scope moves .36" for every click at 100 yards. so that's close to 3 1/8th minute clicks on a target scope, again that's artillery adjustment compared to precision.

Miliradians are not based on a yard at 1000yrds it is a angular measurement that was developed in Europe

 

[JimNM]

What are Milliradians, or MILS?

www.longrangeshootingbooks.com

MILS/MRAD

MILs, or Milliradians, are a unit of measurement dividing radians in a circle. A radian is equal to 57.3 degrees, with 6.2832 (π x 2) radians in a circle.

There are 1000 Milliradians in 1 radian, and therefore 6,283 Milliradians (or Mils) in a circle. Thus, 1 Mil at 100 yards is equal to 10 centimeters, or 3.6" inches.

A mil is so large, it's usually broken into tenths in order to make precise adjustments.So 1 mil equals 1 yard at 1,000 yards, and 1 meter at 1,000 meters. It doesn't matter if you use metric or U.S. Scale, and that's its beauty. Milliradian scopes are often adjustable by 1/10th (0.1) Mil increments.

At 100 yards, a 0.1 mil click is 0.36 inch, and a full mil is 3.6 inches (Practically speaking, 1⁄10 of a mil equals 1 centimeter at 100 meters). MILs, like MOA, is an angular measure, and the length it represents, increases proportionally with distance. For example, 1 mil at 100 yards equals 3.6 inches, and 7.2 inches at 200 yards.

 

[Spartan]

Describing accuracy/consistency in angular measurements such as MOA is by far the most efficient way to describe it since it is independent of range. It just takes less words and less information to convey the value. 1 MOA is often a benchmark for what is a "good" shooting gun, and when you use MOA instead of inches, etc., that benchmark can be applied at any and all ranges, be it 20yds, 1000yds, or anything in between. It creates a constant that can be quickly and easily tracked.

You seem set on 100yds being a de-facto range for shooting/testing guns, but that is not at all the case for me and many other shooters, be it airguns or powder burners, or even some archery equipment. I do tend to sight in many of my PB rifles at 100yds, but across the board, I don't actually shoot at 100yds very often except when sighting in or checking zero. But that doesn't mean that I'm not constantly tracking my groups as I shoot, and I use MOA to do that. Otherwise, the fact that I just shot a 1.5 inch group is meaningless since we don't know if I was shooting at a range of 50yds or 300yds. One of those 1.5 inch groups is quite poor, and the other is outstanding. MOA makes the distinction quite easy.

Once you start using MOA values it will become second nature and you will likely see the benefit. Then you will also see the benefit of using those MOA or Mil values on your scope reticles as well, instead of just seeing them as random hashlines for holds.

 

[BackStop]

Describing accuracy/consistency in angular measurements such as MOA is by far the most efficient way to describe it since it is independent of range. It just takes less words and less information to convey the value. 1 MOA is often a benchmark for what is a "good" shooting gun, and when you use MOA instead of inches, etc., that benchmark can be applied at any and all ranges, be it 20yds, 1000yds, or anything in between. It creates a constant that can be quickly and easily tracked.

You seem set on 100yds being a de-facto range for shooting/testing guns, but that is not at all the case for me and many other shooters, be it airguns or powder burners, or even some archery equipment. I do tend to sight in many of my PB rifles at 100yds, but across the board, I don't actually shoot at 100yds very often except when sighting in or checking zero. But that doesn't mean that I'm not constantly tracking my groups as I shoot, and I use MOA to do that. Otherwise, the fact that I just shot a 1.5 inch group is meaningless since we don't know if I was shooting at a range of 50yds or 300yds. One of those 1.5 inch groups is quite poor, and the other is outstanding. MOA makes the distinction quite easy.

Once you start using MOA values it will become second nature and you will likely see the benefit. Then you will also see the benefit of using those MOA or Mil values on your scope reticles as well, instead of just seeing them as random hashlines for holds.

Well said. (smile)

 

[pbike257]

Miliradians are not based on a yard at 1000yrds it is a angular measurement that was developed in Europe

as it turns out you're correct my mistake I was typing faster than I was thinking again. Now here me out... Its an angular measurement that is equal to 1 Meter at the distance of a 1000 meters... I had said it was 1 yard at a 1000 yards.... for the sake of discussion, please show our viewers how this is different in angular measurements, because these scopes all adjust based on angular measurement and that's where the accuracy as questioned comes into play?