What's with the Slug Speed fetish lately?

[Long_Gun_Dallas]

Also wanted to add that anyone needing higher speeds for better expansion needs to check out some griffin LDC slugs. Been using those for quite some time. 22 cal @50fpe will usually dump ALL energy in a grey squirrel if chest shot. Talk about DRT.

 

[Centercut]

I "kinda" get the expansion thing, but haven't seen it as necessary for ground squirrels and rabbits... I'm a firm believer in the "accuracy trumps all else" school of thought. If you can't hit it, you can't kill it, right? And really now, since it only takes about 6 FPE to kill a ground squirrel (and less for a cottontail), how much does high power high speed really matter?

 

[Roachcreek]

For myself at 73 years of age, and my 100 fpe Troy Hammer Kral Bighorn, it is a Last harrah thing.

I love long range shooting, I lived for 20 years in the only house in 110 square miles and had a 1100 yard range and a sign on my locked gate that said, “If I wanted company I would live next to you”, to keep the riff raff out. I shot everything from a Sar 25 to a long range original engraved Sharps Borschardt on that range.

Many of you that have watched my utube video of my 615 yard shot on a 12 oz cola can, that blurry video was shot on that range 10 years ago. My ballistic arch was higher than a two story building, if Jack and Reba Haley had not made the gun for me and I had not pushed the envelope perhaps a few of you would still be shooting pellets.

I used to live to hunt coyotes, mostly by sitting in a sage brush and calling, and though I am done with shooting coyotes, I thought it would be fun to have a powerful air gun to see how far I could go in power. All of which makes zero sense because I have difficulty shooting 30 feet these days as my last optic nerve dies. But hell why not, what harm does it do?

It does no harm, it is shooters and Airgun gun cranks pushing the envelope, like John Bowman, who is the real father of long range airguning, Doug Noble the ultimates gun crank who gave us the equipment and Cedric’s wonderful blogs and video’s who were the pioneers of long range airgunning.

And it sure to hell was not the big foreign commercial gun makers and their $3000.00 rifles of the month who gave us that. Again it was the shooters and gun cranks mentioned above who got that ball rolling.

So go for for it guys and don’t look back until your looking too close at that long sleep, then close your eyes and remember how much fun it all was.

So yeah that’s why I do it.

And when I say I loved hunting coyotes I am serious.

Regards and good night,

Roachcreek

 

[Mauipilikia]

Marketing/Novice Shooters,
We are routinely bombarded by videos of people shooting the FX Impact using slugs above 950 fps. It's almost the norm.
It's already been shown(over & over) that pellets and slugs shoot best between 850 and maybe 925 fps.

The External Ballistics Of Slugs In Airguns - Hard Air Magazine

For the most part slugs in airguns act in a similar manner to pellets. But there are some subtle differences as we will see in this post.

hardairmagazine.com

Wind Drift For Airguns – It’s Important Where The Wind Is!

In this post, Bob explains why - contrary to popular opinion - the biggest component of wind drift for airguns is nearest to the muzzle.

hardairmagazine.com

I think you are right on target with that statement .
It's the hype machine on overdrive.
I talked to the west coast distributor for [well known air rifle manufacturer]
about shooting, when I needed some parts.
In the first 5 min he was telling me "have you tried the [our bran ammo] at higher velocity? Guys are getting great results @1050".
I shot the .22s and
.30s @1000-1100fps-
They shot poorly from over 990fps in all cases but one, and 1000fps was the highest velocity that was at all "accurate" to 40y
Mosly they seemed to like 900s tops.
I tryed them In several different rifles, including two of [there brand] guns with [their brand] barrels.
It's all about selling air rifles @ "powder burner" power levels.

 

[oregondude]

According to Chairgun

A 25.4 RDM BC of .05 shot at 820 fps takes .3 sec to travel 75yrds drift 2.52 in

A 45gr .30 BC .038 shot at 848 fps takes .3 sec to go 75yrds drift 3.33 in

So the heavier and faster pellet drifts more. The faster you shoot that 45gr the worse it gets

This is a good example of the "lost time" model for wind drift. The heavier, faster slug has a higher "lost time" value than the lighter, slower slug, so it will predictably drift more. Here is the breakdown:
The 25.4gr(pellet) at 820fps would travel the 75yds in 2.74 seconds IF IT DID NOT slow down. It took 3 seconds resulting in .256 seconds of lost time.
The 45gr pellet at 848fps would travel 75yds in 2.653 seconds, IF IT DID NOT SLOW DOWN. It took 3 seconds resulting in .347 seconds lost time. It is not speed or weight that determines drift. It's always "lost time". You can compare your various ammo by comparing muzzle velocity to terminal velocity. Say your shooting 50yrds at 1000fps muzzle velocity. Now read your terminal velocity (50yds). Let's say it's 750fps. That's 250fps less than muzzle velocity, or a drop of 25%. Next you shoot a different ammo at 800fps muzzle velocity. Terminal velocity is say 700fps. That's 100fps slower than the 800fps muzzle velocity, or a 12.5% decrease. Now you can accurately predict which pellet will get the best results against the wind. There are other factors to consider when choosing a pellet or slug, so this is not intended to be a decision maker. It simply proves that velocity, weight, projectile type doesn't matter. Bigger, faster, smaller, slower, smaller, faster, bigger, slower doesn't matter. IT'S LOST TIME. Bill and Addi

 

[weevil]

Zooming out a bit here but projectile speed has always been the advertising metric for airgun sales. It’s emblazoned on the box of every Walmart springer. Of course, now, all of the advertising is done on YT by influencers in a country with the worlds highest diversity of disposable wildlife. Finally, you can have a toy gun for your backyard that shoots with the speed and power of a PB. And because it isn’t loud and stinky, your wife/gf will join you (with a compact version, of course) and you’ll spend eternity together shooting pigeons.

 

[HogKiller]

I "kinda" get the expansion thing, but haven't seen it as necessary for ground squirrels and rabbits... I'm a firm believer in the "accuracy trumps all else" school of thought. If you can't hit it, you can't kill it, right? And really now, since it only takes about 6 FPE to kill a ground squirrel (and less for a cottontail), how much does high power high speed really matter?

120 yards, .25 33.95 JSB MkII leaving Maverick VP 600mm at 890fps, little hole right where it should be. I've been down that slug rabbit hole, luckily I found my way out, but the pellet didn't.

 

[caesar]

Ted Bier posted some groups near 1,100 fps on Instagram. I believe he made a video on it too. Long story short he had great results at the higher speeds. He also noticed with certain NSA slugs the BC increased dramatically. If I remember correctly the bc nearly doubled at the higher speeds, but my brain is telling me that couldn’t possibly be right. If it comes out of Ted’s mouth, I doubt he’s Fooling around though. He based his bc on drop at 100 yards out in this case they shot 3” higher or something at 100

 

[Centercut]

Ted Bier posted some groups near 1,100 fps on Instagram. I believe he made a video on it too. Long story short he had great results at the higher speeds. He also noticed with certain NSA slugs the BC increased dramatically. If I remember correctly the bc nearly doubled at the higher speeds, but my brain is telling me that couldn’t possibly be right. If it comes out of Ted’s mouth, I doubt he’s Fooling around though. He based his bc on drop at 100 yards out in this case they shot 3” higher or something at 100

Ted owns a LabRadar, and I’m sure a new FX Outdoors Chrono. At any time during the debate he could have easily calculated the true BC…. But he didn’t.
Things that make you go hmmm…

 

[N2 Shooter]

I've noticed lately that more and more shooters of airgun slugs are increasingly looking for higher speeds... My question is why?

What is the benefit of shooting faster, say 1050 compared to 900 fps?

Wind drift isn't better. Yes, the shots are "flatter", but really, with distances known, does that make a difference?

The gun gets less shots per fill, and is harder to shoot accurately, so what is the reasoning other than psychological?

Ballistic damage is more dramatic with ammo flying faster. When you get those speeds around 975fps, it just rips hunks of flesh off of smaller game like ground squirrels, as the round is moving so fast, the tissue can't compress and just explodes. I've tried to edge up my speeds to improve terminal performance with the .30cal Hybrids at distances over 125yards, but I can't get past 945fps with 600mm barrel, and accuracy is suffering as well as shot count. Ultimately, I think I'm better off shooting a slug that is not as frangible as the Hybrid Slugs and maybe something heavier like the JSB Knockouts to carry more momentum and deliver deeper penetration.

 

[delooper]

IMO if you stare too hard at recent trends in a slowly-evolving world, it's easy to get lost in the minutiae. I don't need or want fast slugs as one of the main things I look for in a PCP rifle is that it's quiet. I don't want to be making giant sonic booms. Air guns are supposed to be rifles for hobbits.

 

[Mcleod]

IMO if you stare too hard at recent trends in a slowly-evolving world, it's easy to get lost in the minutiae. I don't need or want fast slugs as one of the main things I look for in a PCP rifle is that it's quiet. I don't want to be making giant sonic booms. Air guns are supposed to be rifles for hobbits.

I've always thought of the air rifle world as Elvish. Hobbits.. egads.

 

[beerthief]

'It's all about selling air rifles @ "powder burner" power levels."
And unfortunately it will end in more laws .

 

[Ballisticboy]

Ted Bier posted some groups near 1,100 fps on Instagram. I believe he made a video on it too. Long story short he had great results at the higher speeds. He also noticed with certain NSA slugs the BC increased dramatically. If I remember correctly the bc nearly doubled at the higher speeds, but my brain is telling me that couldn’t possibly be right. If it comes out of Ted’s mouth, I doubt he’s Fooling around though. He based his bc on drop at 100 yards out in this case they shot 3” higher or something at 100

The main reasons for Ted's results were the use of G1 drag law, which is totally unsuitable for slugs but enables manufacturers to claim high BC values at high speeds, and looking at his video, putting in what appear to be the wrong atmospheric conditions changing the air density and the Mach number (he appears to have the temperature as 0 degrees F but is walking around in shorts and a tee shirt).

 

[Centercut]

And there is another benefit of shooting slugs at reasonable (850 to 950 fps) speeds. The G1 and RA4 profiles are just about identical. In fact, the G7 profile is also identical if the correct numbers are used.
I’m my experience, the Altaros ATP Smooth 49.5 in .25 caliber has a G1 BC of 0.21, and the G7 BC of 0.111. They both give the same trajectory validation at 890 fps out to 300 yards.

 

[Motorhead]

Ultimate accuracy with shot after shot at known fixed distances would tend to agree 850-950 with slugs is the more prudent choice.
As one who does a fair amount of vermin pesting .... range ever changing dang near every shot the faster 950 -1050 with lighter .177 & .22 slugs it becomes IMO a bit easier having a flatter trajectory profile.
It may not be as MOA accurate, but I sure do connect a lot more due to the speed and tad less drop.

I'm no stranger to slower is more accurate having shot "Hunter" FT now @ 7 years at @ 800 fps where those around me at 880-920 fps

 

[delooper]

I've always thought of the air rifle world as Elvish. Hobbits.. egads.

If an elf did not want to spend an arrow on quarry it would sing a pleasant song, to convince its prey to walk into its hands.

 

[steve123]

The main reasons for Ted's results were the use of G1 drag law, which is totally unsuitable for slugs but enables manufacturers to claim high BC values at high speeds, and looking at his video, putting in what appear to be the wrong atmospheric conditions changing the air density and the Mach number (he appears to have the temperature as 0 degrees F but is walking around in shorts and a tee shirt).

Also

Just wondering here but I wonder if the node for the slower speeds were when the projectile was leaving the barrel in its 6 oclock position while the 1100 fps projectile left the barrel at the 12 oclock position???

What do you think of this subject as far as airgun barrels go?

 

[MongooseV8]

For me, since I use mine for hunting critters exclusively, I want as much performance as possible. I owe it to the critters to do the best I can, and part of that is terminal performance. Faster is better in almost every aspect and scenario, especially when limited to "slow" air power.

Another reason is BC is affected by velocity. So in your example, a given slug going 900fps at the muzzle will have more wind drift at all distances than if it starts at 1050fps. And that is then multiplied by the TOF difference between the two speeds. Admittedly in some cases the difference is very very small, but why leave performance on the table? If you are just punching paper at 25/50 yards it wont matter. But many of us are using our rigs at extended ranges where the extra 100-150fps really makes an obvious difference.

Some people are totally fine driving a Honda to work everyday their whole life. I didnt buy my FX(s) to drive the speed limit and get good mpgs lol.

 

[ccarson2]

The purpose behind slugs is higher bc. If you are getting drawn to slugs you are probably trying to shoot to further distances or to retain energy at further distances. So obviously higher velocity is going to be attractive also. A high bc cant retain velocity you don't give it.

I have rifles shooting around 1038 that are sub moa at 100 yards or real close, and get a full magazine for shout count. Why would i want to tune it down?

I think theres a misconception that lower fps means greater accuracy and that hasnt been my experience. Even with pellets that hasnt been my experience. My texan, western rattler and gauntlet all print good groups with slugs going over 1000 fps and they group just as well with pellets going over 1000 fps. The only rifle i own that has needed to be "fps tuned" has been my impact m3 which cant hold a group for poop if it goes over 840 fps and is only capable of shooting pellets without modifications.

Dont get me wrong its a better rifle in many ways, is more balanced and easier to carry, great trigger and smooth as butter lever, very accurate with pellets when tuned correctly etc. But my other rifles have no problem printing groups just as good at much higher velocities with pellets or slugs.

Being that i can compress my own air / fill my own scba as long as i can get the full magazine thats really all i care about. Just refill the bottle when i refill the mag. My gauntlet shooting over 1000 fps still gets 3 full mags? What would be my advantage to tuning it down? Maybe rat hunting indoors?


But for many purposes a higher bc going faster is just better. Higher energy, better range/ less drop. If you are slightly off on the targets distance less drop = more chance to still be on target