What's with the Slug Speed fetish lately?

[Vetmx]

It could be a hundred different things. With a 2-4mph cross wind, a guy could drift his way into a good internet group to post pictures of. I test all my guns over weeks or even months. I want to narrow down a projectile to the point that when it shoots bad, it’s me or the barrel needs cleaned. It sounds easy but sometimes it’s not. I’ve had bad groups show up because I changed how I was supporting the gun. It caused be to go on a chase for a while and I almost abandoned a great tune and projectile because of something that dumb. But we are getting off topic about the whole BC thing. Which as I eluded to, I don’t care about. It’s hard enough to find a spot on deadly combo without then concerning myself about the BC of it. Once I find supreme accuracy, I’ll adapt to whatever the BC is. In the airgun shooting bullets world, we are not at the point where we can be real picky like we can in the PB world.

 

[qball]

Yeah, I remember you mentioned something like this elsewhere.

➠ Was the first group just an "accident" — a lucky group? And the groups the next day representative of the average precision the gun/slug combination is capable of?

Or what would cause such a curious discrepancy?


I need to understand this before I slide deeper down the slug rabbit hole. Thanks!

Matthias

If a gun shoots different size groups on different days only means there are variables between days. Whether it’s the gun or environmentally like wind or the shooter is what the person behind the trigger need to figure out. If a gun shoots even one 1/2 MOA group then there gun itself has the potential to be a very accurate gun, same can be said about the shooter that shot the group but to get multiple 1/2 MOA groups is 100% shooter’s responsibility. It certainly isn’t the gun’s fault when a gust of wind kicks up half way through the group or the shoot pulled on the 5th shot.

Yesterday I got very lucky and hit 3 12 oz soda cans(3/4 x 1 3/4 MOA) at 300 yards with 4 slugs. A lot of luck was involved but it also took well over 10,000 slugs to get this lucky. Thank you NSA!

 

[Centercut]

Yesterday I got very lucky and hit 3 12 oz soda cans(3/4 x 1 3/4 MOA) at 300 yards with 4 slugs. A lot of luck was involved but it also took well over 10,000 slugs to get this lucky. Thank you NSA!

The more you practice, the luckier you get...!

 

[Vetmx]

Yes, a ton of shooting and testing definitely bridges the gap between needing pure luck or just a little luck.

 

[Struckat]

That’s what is so entertaining about forums and the internet. Right now I could go grab a random gun out of my safe, grab a random slug, shoot a good group then post it on a forum. Instantly 200 guys with that gun are placing orders for that slug. Little do they know that the next day my gun was shooting like sh#t. So funny.

Are you saying I did a bad thing? I bought them with zero expectation or need, other than what Qball said, experimentation is fun.
I have had the opportunity to shoot out to 50 yards twice in the last two years, so I really do not need slugs, nor do I have a slug gun.

It’s just fun that I am having. But Weevils results in the same gun that I have were interesting for sure. Although I tried them in my 1720, not my 1701.
So I bought a box. If that entertains you, well that is just me indirectly including you in the fun.
It’s all good.

 

[Roachcreek]

When I did my 500-550-615 yard video’s on 12 oz cola cans, I ran my Haley flat out, all the velocity I could get.

At times, with whatever task we are attempting, a slug that groups 1 “ at 50 yards with a maximum velocity of 1050 is needed over the same slug at 900 fps that groups into 1/2 inch, calling coyotes is a example. At such close range, 50 yards, bc is not really that important nor is wind drift.

I have killed elk and many mule deer with cast .338 200 grain slugs at 1800 fps, it all depends on the task at hand.

RC

 

[DesertSilver]

Yup. Science is science. And science doesn’t care whether you believe in it or not. You can disagree all you want, but the Earth isn’t flat…
Maybe the science @Ballisticboy can step in here, but he’s probably tired of explaining the same thing over and over and over…

So you've never been to Kansas? Jk

 

[Vetmx]

Are you saying I did a bad thing? I bought them with zero expectation or need, other than what Qball said, experimentation is fun.
I have had the opportunity to shoot out to 50 yards twice in the last two years, so I really do not need slugs, nor do I have a slug gun.

It’s just fun that I am having. But Weevils results in the same gun that I have were interesting for sure. Although I tried them in my 1720, not my 1701.
So I bought a box. If that entertains you, well that is just me indirectly including you in the fun.
It’s all good.

I am generally speaking from what I have observed since joining airgun forums in 2017. If the shoe fits then guys can wear them until they wonder why their feet are always sore. Then they can start taking everything they read or think they see with a grain of salt. I have some amazing shooting guns but I don’t talk much about my exact setups because one, it probably only works in my guns because of what’s done to them and how I go about things. And two, when my projectile doesn’t work for Bob or Bill, I don’t want to have to try to diagnose what tiny element about his gun might be different from mine in order for him not to be upset. On a positive note, with slugs in this hobby, guys are generally used to disappointment and don’t hold grudges because they wasted money. It’s almost like guys enjoy collecting 20lbs of lead that they will never use.

 

[stanginthe11s]

all I can say as far as this thread is you guys should really try to keep an open mind. @Centercut, science is science, but you have to except that running #'s or doing computer models is not science its only theory. actual science is what has been proven firsthand many times over. we have to realize that there is no one answer to any of these situations because we all leave out parts of the equation.

@Ballisticboy, the argument of TOF is crazy. to argue that time has no effect on something is just plain wrong. it's the most basic of all science that was taught in grade school. Time is the one thing that affects everything in this world. we are literally using TOF as a base for every argument, this thread was started based off of TOF. now, what I believe many are doing is seeing a result of something and mis associating it with something else. there are a few other things that are never discussed when it comes to speed or shooting, and they will affect what we see or perceive.

at the end of the day, one thing we all agree on is accuracy is the only factor that matters. personally, I don't care what my slug, pellet or bullet does on its way to the target so long as it hits what I aim for. if a slug at 1100 fps proves to be more accurate in MY gun than one at 800fps, then I'm using it. there are valid reasons for both fast and slow, we can't discredit one just because we don't like it.
I would love to sit with you guys and debate "science" and aero/hydrodynamics, I bet the outcome would be amazing. as frustrating as it would be, that is how real science is made.

 

[Ballisticboy]

@Ballisticboy, the argument of TOF is crazy. to argue that time has no effect on something is just plain wrong. it's the most basic of all science that was taught in grade school. Time is the one thing that affects everything in this world. we are literally using TOF as a base for every argument, this thread was started based off of TOF. now, what I believe many are doing is seeing a result of something and mis associating it with something else. there are a few other things that are never discussed when it comes to speed or shooting, and they will affect what we see or perceive.

Since you refuse to believe anything I have tried to explain, I can only suggest you try reading the explanation by someone else you have quoted yourself. If you read chapter 5 of "Applied Ballistics for Long-Range Shooting" by Bryan Litz you will find a full explanation, exactly the same as I have been saying. Lag time is the primary variable combined with wind speed and direction, even to the extent of saying a bullet with no drag has no wind drift.

None of what I have said or presented is in any way theory. It is all proven ballistic fact and practice, known for many years and completely proven in many situations and experiments throughout the world, which is used in practice by just about every military in the world every day.

 

[Lastcat]

Good topic, just started shooting slugs this year. Finally got a Wildcat in .30. Using the Patriot Javelin 56gr going 101 fpe and the 58gr hitting 102 fpe. Haven't tried the 52gr Javelin, this one is next for sure.

 

[weevil]

Since you refuse to believe anything I have tried to explain, I can only suggest you try reading the explanation by someone else you have quoted yourself. If you read chapter 5 of "Applied Ballistics for Long-Range Shooting" by Bryan Litz you will find a full explanation, exactly the same as I have been saying.

When the username is composed of a car and quarter mile time, it’s often associated with “sticking to your guns” (no pun intended) and “having the last word”

 

[Aardvark]

This is why I love this forum. You ALL are Awesome. Keep your respect in check.

 

[stanginthe11s]

ya know, I recall many times NASA engineers spoke in absolutes and spoke of exact science. how did that work out again? but hey, science is science right? if only they had this forum.

When the username is composed of a car and quarter mile time, it’s often associated with “sticking to your guns” (no pun intended) and “having the last word”

lol you are correct. but realize racers bet their life on aerodynamics, and I can assure you wind is real, and it absolutely pushes objects.

 

[zer0dev]

Took me two days, but finally had the time to read this whole thread. @Ballisticboy 's post #89 was excellent and cleared up a lot for me. The graphs are priceless.

Quick point regarding TOF and lag time... @stanginthe11s you have to realize that in practice those are correlated. A longer TOF in a world with drag results in a larger lag time and more drift. You're not wrong that TOF matters, but it's important to understand why it matters in a given set of parameters. In the zero drag counterexample, TOF doesn't matter. Physics and engineering are enlightening every day.

Finally, regarding the argument about BC and speed and accuracy and even consistency... no one has really mentioned predictability. The hunters that have commented have skirted around it. I shoot my 600 mm .22 Panthera and ATP King's for NRL22. I need an accurate, consistent, and predictable gun and ammo. I don't have the luxury of a setup that shoots great at 100 yards only (I have a bench gun for that, and at least here in the US that's not slugs). I need something that I can shoot at all ranges with predictable, repeatable results and no tweaks in between.

In that regard that flat trajectory is only good if it shoots just as good as 50 yds as it does at 150 yds. With my setup about 915 fps is doing it so far. I've tried a bit slower with similar results, so I'll take the little extra speed. The gun is still calm and easy to shoot.

I feel like I rambled a bit, but there it is.

 

[stephenst4470]

Countries outside the U.S. often have legal limits on caliber and/or energy. The U.K. shooters have to be under 12 fpe if they don't have a special license. Germany has even tougher limits.

I think Germany is around 5 fpe.Yikes, you might be able to throw it harder.

 

[rappert]

For me, since I use mine for hunting critters exclusively, I want as much performance as possible. I owe it to the critters to do the best I can, and part of that is terminal performance. Faster is better in almost every aspect and scenario, especially when limited to "slow" air power.

Another reason is BC is affected by velocity. So in your example, a given slug going 900fps at the muzzle will have more wind drift at all distances than if it starts at 1050fps. And that is then multiplied by the TOF difference between the two speeds. Admittedly in some cases the difference is very very small, but why leave performance on the table? If you are just punching paper at 25/50 yards it wont matter. But many of us are using our rigs at extended ranges where the extra 100-150fps really makes an obvious difference.

Some people are totally fine driving a Honda to work everyday their whole life. I didnt buy my FX(s) to drive the speed limit and get good mpgs lol.

Mongoose........what?...........you have broken out of the matrix (hah! hah!). Back in CC's box you go. Seriously, I also use my guns for the same purpose and have experienced the same thing. I really notice the impact difference with the extra 100-150 fps. I run all my guns at 1070-1120 fps (except my .35). All shoot MOA at 100 yds. So, I am not sure where the assumed "harder to shoot accurately" comes from. I also got over the "less shot count" non-issue a long time ago and bought a larger air tank. So, as they continue in the weeds arguing about BC's, spin drift, Yaw, drag models, wind drift etc, I'll keep killing prairie dogs at 400 yards and knocking coyotes paws out from under them.

 

[TheShooter (aka Seeker)]

Well, some folks hunting with the slugs need high speed for the projectile expansion when they do the vitals shots.

 

[delooper]

The higher fps numbers, the more people they peel off of the powderburner market. That's probably the rationale behind the marketing push.

Have you looked at the Backfire channel? Air guns as a quiet .22lr alternatives is something they mention quite often, and the high fps numbers are one of the main points of attraction. The other item they advertise is the "market with less hassles" for moderators.

 

[Centercut]

I always get a good chuckle when I read shooters talking about Airguns shooting “flat”.