Who’s the King of 100?
- Thread starter thomasair
- Start date
As to the format ... can't see any other way to keep it even for all shooters. Granted no way around the odds of the better lanes certain times of day etc ... but being ALL are out at the same time in rotation that becomes just what it is.
Interested ... INDEED tho able to attend if happening in the future ? Not likely being the distance of 1300+ miles each way, time & fuel and places to stay in route $$$
All for bragging rights ... Meh, can shoot here locally and be just as satisfied with my misses as well hits.
Great idea tho for those who feel the need to strut there stuff or try to see how they fair against others.
Scott S
Interested ... INDEED tho able to attend if happening in the future ? Not likely being the distance of 1300+ miles each way, time & fuel and places to stay in route $$$
All for bragging rights ... Meh, can shoot here locally and be just as satisfied with my misses as well hits.
Great idea tho for those who feel the need to strut there stuff or try to see how they fair against others.
Scott S
Upvote 0
I would like to see a target that someone could eventually shoot a 250 on. As it stands…even if you gave an extra point for every shot scored on a EBR target….a 250 would be ultra rare at 100y and even then the x count would be fairly low in a competition setting. The EBR target was made way beyond the capability of the equipment and shooter at 100y. It’s not a terrible target for 75, but we all know that 100 is a world apart from 75 when shooting a pellet. In the end, it really won’t likely make any difference in shooter placement….but it does feel better for shooters to be closer to 250.
National 50 is solid proof of this concept. Wrabf 50y was a flop because the target was nearly impossible and scores were mostly poor. N50 has garnered more participation in its short life than Wrabf 50 had in its entire existence. Still shooting the same distance…but the N50 card is appropriately sized for pellet shooing and people have more fun because of it. I can 100% assure you that nobody will have less fun with bigger circles.
Ultimately, I really don't care. Even if the rings were made to EBR size, or the larger RMAC or PAC size….I would not be making gigantic cards like they use. The 6 ring would be the last ring….and if you're outside of that you get a 5. Put two shots on a target box…you get the lowest score of the 2 minus 1. I would also allow shooters to hang their own sighter blocks wherever they like such as N50 or any of the others do. The 25 bull targets would probably end up around 24 x 24 with no sighters
Mike
National 50 is solid proof of this concept. Wrabf 50y was a flop because the target was nearly impossible and scores were mostly poor. N50 has garnered more participation in its short life than Wrabf 50 had in its entire existence. Still shooting the same distance…but the N50 card is appropriately sized for pellet shooing and people have more fun because of it. I can 100% assure you that nobody will have less fun with bigger circles.
Ultimately, I really don't care. Even if the rings were made to EBR size, or the larger RMAC or PAC size….I would not be making gigantic cards like they use. The 6 ring would be the last ring….and if you're outside of that you get a 5. Put two shots on a target box…you get the lowest score of the 2 minus 1. I would also allow shooters to hang their own sighter blocks wherever they like such as N50 or any of the others do. The 25 bull targets would probably end up around 24 x 24 with no sighters
Mike
Upvote 0
N50 target blown up to 200%?? Twice the distance into twice the size...seems pretty direct to me.
Upvote 0
Definitely direct…but unfortunately wind drift increases by the square. There is 4x more drift at 100 in a given mph than at 50….although the 200% N50 would have a more appropriate sized 10 ring than the current 100y targets. Plugged with a .350” plug it would yield about 1 Moa ctc for a 10. That seems sensible.
Mike
Mike
Upvote 0
Sounds like a good idea, N100? have standardized targets, that distinguishes this competition from EBR, RMAC, PAcup, also would love to see Competitions held in the Midwest or eastern side of the nation, if we could get a big enough venue Maybe CARDINAL shooting center in OHIO?
Upvote 0
Joe, the main problem is that there is virtually no grassroots foundation for 100 air rifle BR. If you decide you want to get into 100y BR….you’ll have a hell of a time finding anyone that enjoys it enough to want to shoot it at a club level throughout the season. It’s virtually nonexistent outside of the RMAC or EBR. That’s completely the opposite of any other BR discipline….whether air, Rimfire, or centerfire. The clubs are the foundation and a big event is run once a year or more to get the clubs together. It’s quite strange.
If this tournament ever comes together….I suspect those that attend will be mostly an entirely different group than those that attend the current big events. Very few that shoot the current matches really seem to mind that the one card final formats cannot possibly determine the best shooter.
I think Cardinal lacks a few things for putting on a good BR match. Size, decent benches, and a wailing wall for displaying targets are just the first things that come to mind.
Mike
If this tournament ever comes together….I suspect those that attend will be mostly an entirely different group than those that attend the current big events. Very few that shoot the current matches really seem to mind that the one card final formats cannot possibly determine the best shooter.
I think Cardinal lacks a few things for putting on a good BR match. Size, decent benches, and a wailing wall for displaying targets are just the first things that come to mind.
Mike
Upvote 0
I totally agree on cardinals “benches” they can’t even be described as benches! Size of range I believe is adequate. Also agree it would take some major organizational commitment from a club. The club/range close to me can’t handle the numbers that potentially would show up?
I’m not a 100yd shooter but will try again at the PAcup and would definitely try your proposed format.
I’m not a 100yd shooter but will try again at the PAcup and would definitely try your proposed format.
Upvote 0
I have always hated the EBR sized targets for 100Y! That target is still difficult at 75Y. That's a great idea making the "K100" targets more appropriate for pellets and a possible 250 score, I'm all for it.
The way Mike N is doing the K100 will certainly be interesting and seems like a very fair way to run the match. Another thing I hate is getting stuck on the bench at the end next to the berm, as well as the WINDY relay, which has happened before.
The way Mike N is doing the K100 will certainly be interesting and seems like a very fair way to run the match. Another thing I hate is getting stuck on the bench at the end next to the berm, as well as the WINDY relay, which has happened before.
Upvote 0
I’m with you Steve, re. current 100y EBR targets.
They are truly humbling at 100 yards, and would love to see a larger sized K100 target. I don’t shoot in f2f 100 yard BR tournaments, but I do frequently shoot and post practice EBR and N50 cards. And, I try hard to follow the rules and shooting / scoring guidelines to give me a sense of the actual 100 yard BR tournaments.
If there ever was an official EBR or RMAC-like event held locally in NC, I would attend if available. I’m sure many of our BR AGN enthusiasts would do the same if the events were local to them too. I do still enjoy watching and vicariously participating following the current competitions.
When N50 was announced I signed up, ordered 200 official sized targets and could not be happier shooting both Rimfire and air rifles at 50 yards. I like shooting EBR 100 yard cards too, but a larger target which is more forgiving would be welcome. Still, I fully understand and appreciate those folks who like the EBR / RMAC sized 100 yard cards ( as is); and like the challenge they provide.
As Mike mentioned earlier, part of the regular attraction for me now is that I love going to the range and shooting the N50 cards because I have shot a “250” and a few “249 and 248” cards; but only with a custom Anschutz 1907 .22 LR with tuner. But….I’m trying to get there with the Safari and RAW, but it’s a pipe dream. Hence, this is why I like the N50 cards. If I can get in the 240’s with my two air rifles, that makes me happy
Tom
Upvote 0
It's been funny to read through this discussion about target sizes. The psychology of it is interesting. "If the target is too hard, make it bigger." Kinda the emperors new clothes going on here. Bigger targets don't make us shoot any better (or using a bigger sizing plug like N50 for that matter), we just feel better about ourselves and our equipment when the score is 248/250 instead of 230/250. Groups are the same size whether the final number is 248 or 230, the gun and shooter dont shoot any better just cuz the target is bigger.
Not arguing against the bigger targets helping out our egos, just interesting to note how the human brain works I guess.
Not arguing against the bigger targets helping out our egos, just interesting to note how the human brain works I guess.
Upvote 0
I kinda understand about the target sizes, but I think you’ll get a much larger turnout if you use similar target sizes to EBR or RMAC. There were approx 200 shooters at each event, and they’ll turn out better if they can shoot the same sizes so they can compare apples to apples from their EBR or RMAC experiences.
@franklink has a point, just because the targets are larger doesn’t mean you’ll shoot any better…. Golfers don’t avoid courses that they know are very difficult just because they’ll shoot a high score… The scores are compared to others shooting or playing the same targets or course on the same day.
There isn’t a whole lot of whining when one golfer gets like lucky and shoots in calm in the AM when another shoots in windier conditions in the PM. They just accept it as part of the game. Some luck will always be present no matter how hard you try to make it totally fair. My vote is not to reinvent the wheel and go with the target sizes thst hundreds of shooters might be interested in.
@franklink has a point, just because the targets are larger doesn’t mean you’ll shoot any better…. Golfers don’t avoid courses that they know are very difficult just because they’ll shoot a high score… The scores are compared to others shooting or playing the same targets or course on the same day.
There isn’t a whole lot of whining when one golfer gets like lucky and shoots in calm in the AM when another shoots in windier conditions in the PM. They just accept it as part of the game. Some luck will always be present no matter how hard you try to make it totally fair. My vote is not to reinvent the wheel and go with the target sizes thst hundreds of shooters might be interested in.
Upvote 0
Fair points guys. I totally get your analogies.
Larger targets / bulls don’t make you shoot better. I even acknowledged that point in my post, and I don’t think the intent of this thread/ discussion is to displace RMAC or EBR sized targets - no worries.
I think the idea of increased sizing of 100 yard bulls has merit for the vast majority of “virtual” 100 yard BR shooters that can’t attend these events. I also think there are some that feel the current sized EBR bulls for 100 yards are too small for an air rifle. In fact, there are many on the GTA NUAH forum that have difficulty at 100 yards with a 2 inch 10 ring. So much so, that interest in NUAH is diminishing.
Realistically, there has not been a recent winner who shot a 235, 240, 245, or a 250 at 100 yards with an air rifle in a competitive forum that I am aware of for EBR or RMAC with the current sized cards.
I think there is ample room for new ideas and I commend Mike N for his creativity, as I know we all do.
Larger targets / bulls don’t make you shoot better. I even acknowledged that point in my post, and I don’t think the intent of this thread/ discussion is to displace RMAC or EBR sized targets - no worries.
I think the idea of increased sizing of 100 yard bulls has merit for the vast majority of “virtual” 100 yard BR shooters that can’t attend these events. I also think there are some that feel the current sized EBR bulls for 100 yards are too small for an air rifle. In fact, there are many on the GTA NUAH forum that have difficulty at 100 yards with a 2 inch 10 ring. So much so, that interest in NUAH is diminishing.
Realistically, there has not been a recent winner who shot a 235, 240, 245, or a 250 at 100 yards with an air rifle in a competitive forum that I am aware of for EBR or RMAC with the current sized cards.
I think there is ample room for new ideas and I commend Mike N for his creativity, as I know we all do.
Upvote 0
It’s not my intent to create a match to compete with the current 100y events….nor is it my hope that the same people attend.
As I said in the original post….I just want to finally put together a 100y match for people that are interested in a format that is solely designed to find the best shooter in attendance by removing as much of the chance factor as possible.
If there are enough other people out there that feel that this kind of format is important in competition…the event will happen.
Mike
As I said in the original post….I just want to finally put together a 100y match for people that are interested in a format that is solely designed to find the best shooter in attendance by removing as much of the chance factor as possible.
If there are enough other people out there that feel that this kind of format is important in competition…the event will happen.
Mike
Upvote 0
I looked through the data from the N50 nationals and thought I would share it as it’s very relevant to this topic.
Each class selected the match winner by a total of 6 cards shot.
In the Pellet class the high scores of the 6 individual rounds were produced by 3 people. The guy that actually had the highest 6 card total only won the last 2 cards. One guy that won 2 of the cards got 4th place, and the other 2 card winner got 3rd. The second place finisher did not win any of the rounds.
In the Sportsman class there were 5 different shooters that won the individual rounds. The shooter with the highest 6 card aggregate only won one round and it was the 5th card. It’s very clear who really shot the best by the 6 card total…but if it was a 1 card match we could’ve had 5 different winners.
EBR and RMAC are one card matches. By this I mean that the winner is decided by shooting one card in the finals. My point is that it’s almost impossible for this format to select the best shooter in attendance due to the massive variability in scores (especially at 100y) for each person. At any distance, if someone shoots 10 cards…most likely all 10 cards will be different scores. Shooters will always produce a range of scores. Events with one card formats are only good for selecting the lucky guy that got his high card in the final. Rerun the event 10 times and you will likely have 5 or more other single card winners.
My intent is not to disparage the EBR or RMAC with these posts….only to point out that their format cannot possibly select the real best shooter in attendance without a good deal of chance. Chance has its place at fun shoots, but should be minimized as much as possible at tournaments.
Mike
Each class selected the match winner by a total of 6 cards shot.
In the Pellet class the high scores of the 6 individual rounds were produced by 3 people. The guy that actually had the highest 6 card total only won the last 2 cards. One guy that won 2 of the cards got 4th place, and the other 2 card winner got 3rd. The second place finisher did not win any of the rounds.
In the Sportsman class there were 5 different shooters that won the individual rounds. The shooter with the highest 6 card aggregate only won one round and it was the 5th card. It’s very clear who really shot the best by the 6 card total…but if it was a 1 card match we could’ve had 5 different winners.
EBR and RMAC are one card matches. By this I mean that the winner is decided by shooting one card in the finals. My point is that it’s almost impossible for this format to select the best shooter in attendance due to the massive variability in scores (especially at 100y) for each person. At any distance, if someone shoots 10 cards…most likely all 10 cards will be different scores. Shooters will always produce a range of scores. Events with one card formats are only good for selecting the lucky guy that got his high card in the final. Rerun the event 10 times and you will likely have 5 or more other single card winners.
My intent is not to disparage the EBR or RMAC with these posts….only to point out that their format cannot possibly select the real best shooter in attendance without a good deal of chance. Chance has its place at fun shoots, but should be minimized as much as possible at tournaments.
Mike
Upvote 0
True, and I see what you are saying, but most other styles of BR type matches are designed especially to allow a perfect score to be achievable. I haven't shot a 250 yet but that is a fun goal to aim for.
EGO thing for sure, I guess its the hope of shooting a perfect score like we've done in FT, it just feels great!
I think we'd rather win with a 40 in XFT than say, winning with a 20. Just something about knocking down all the targets with perfection vs winning by knocking down half of them. Yes its funny that humans feel that way but there's something to it nevertheless. Getting a 40 is like winning twice! You won and on top of that all the targets fell.
It's kinda like when we shoot at Mike B's EBR practice cards at 100Y and we happen to luck out and get a 50 in one of the bulls, it is so cool isn't it?! But as reality settles in we know it was more luck than anything because getting a 250 on 5 bulls is a one in a billion chance so all hope is lost.
Upvote 0
As far as target ring sizes go, It’s not about ego…. it is about preserving the interest of new shooters. Making target rings larger actually reduces the score gaps between the top and bottom.
If you create a target that has significantly less distance between the seasoned shooters and the beginners…you have a much better chance of keeping these guys around long enough for them to learn the game and progress. The trick is to also make the target continually interesting for the guys that have been around a while. An appropriately sized target that uses a base score and X counts can do this very well. Making the 10 ring relatively large allows the base scores to be much closer between the top and bottom shooters…but still having a tough X keeps the target from being mastered.
The current 100y target rings could be twice the size and nobody will ever shoot a perfect score with pellets….but competition scores would be much, much closer. Tight competition makes exciting competition for everyone. The guys below the fold will be far happier with their scores, and the guys on the top will be no less happy.
Mike
If you create a target that has significantly less distance between the seasoned shooters and the beginners…you have a much better chance of keeping these guys around long enough for them to learn the game and progress. The trick is to also make the target continually interesting for the guys that have been around a while. An appropriately sized target that uses a base score and X counts can do this very well. Making the 10 ring relatively large allows the base scores to be much closer between the top and bottom shooters…but still having a tough X keeps the target from being mastered.
The current 100y target rings could be twice the size and nobody will ever shoot a perfect score with pellets….but competition scores would be much, much closer. Tight competition makes exciting competition for everyone. The guys below the fold will be far happier with their scores, and the guys on the top will be no less happy.
Mike
Upvote 0
i this like king of 2 miles for powder burners ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0FoUKkbshI&t=483s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0FoUKkbshI&t=483s
Upvote 0
Total agreement - 100000000 %
Mike N. - not to flatter you, but I think you are on a great 100 yard thread discussion. What a great discussion with some of the best AG BR shooters in the world!!
I DO Hope you get a representative number of shooters for your proposed idea!
We all do!
p.s. shooting some N50 cards tomorrow
Tom
Upvote 0