Who’s the King of 100?

[Richieg]

If accuracy is the goal, what's the big deal about target size? You can make the 100 yard bull, 1/8" or 1". The only thing that will change is score. Those who will win with a 1/8" bull, will win with a 1" bull, it's just score won't be as good. It doesn't matter what RMAC or AOA use as targets...you can go smaller...which will make it harder. If you are wanting to find the most accurate shooters. POI doesn't change with target size.

 

[JimNM]

I did a quick .jpg file on my laser CAD. On my system the Brother laser printer spits out a 4.67" target on 8x11 paper when printed landscape. 

updated and proofed file - 

 

[thomasair]

Thanks for that target, Jim. Is the X the size of the ASA 10?

As far as ring sizes go…having a 10 ring smaller than the capability of the equipment adds an unnecessary luck element. The goal of a proper match is to even things out on the match day….not even things out in the long run.

Mike 

 

[jdwarren]

At RMAC, we have talked about ways to "pre-qualify" for the "main event", but there are not many clubs holding 100 yd matches in order to determine who is "qualified". I have proposed that one method might be to invite the top 5 from each of the prior year RMAC, EBR, PC, and Mexican EBR. One problem is that most of these competitions are mainly what I call "media events", where many of the competitors mainly want to shoot, with and rub elbows with, their favorite internet stars. If the internet stars did not qualify, they might not bother to come and that would hurt attendance. I suspect it would also adversely affect sponsorships, where most of the prizes come from.

I agree with your thought process, but I'm not aware of ANY USA airgun type competition that "pre-qualifies" shooters for the Finals or Nationals. AAFTA anyone can sigh up to shoot the Nationals. N50 anyone can sign up to shoot the Nationals. I think until there are so many entrants that the venue can't accommodate the shooters it'll continue to be that way... If we only invite top shooters from the previous year, how would Keith ever have won RMAC last year?

I guess that was my whole point (maybe poorly written)... When stuck with a small range, there is no practical way to pre-qualify competitors to make for a reasonable match. There are also not enough previous matches to pick from.

Even though I don't really care for 100 yd benchrest with airguns, I hope the N50 add-on (assuming it is held) will be a success. It is the only true 100 yd airgun benchrest competition that I have seen proposed for a large, national-level, event.

--Jim

 

[JimNM]

MIke - yes, I checked the final print against the 10X and the 6 rings - at least from my printer.

Found a format issue with shape of rings. Fixed in version k100.e

 

[Centercut]

I guess that was my whole point (maybe poorly written)... When stuck with a small range, there is no practical way to pre-qualify competitors to make for a reasonable match. There are also not enough previous matches to pick from.

Even though I don't really care for 100 yd benchrest with airguns, I hope the N50 add-on (assuming it is held) will be a success. It is the only true 100 yd airgun benchrest competition that I have seen proposed for a large, national-level, event.

--Jim

Jim, understood. I agree that from a pure benchrest point of view, that way would remove most of the "luck" factor that can be removed compared to EBR or RMAC. The EBR target is slightly smaller than the RMAC target, but not by much. Part of the fun of RMAC and EBR are all the other events, so the tournament isn't a one trick pony. I'm not sure we'd fill up those events if it was just a two day 100Y BR, three card a day and nothing else. I don't think it would be that much of an imposition at RMAC and EBR to do a two card final for the Pro division (its not 3, but its better than 1). I'd be interested in that, and am interested in the one in NM, but the 14 hour drive each way with gas at $7 per gallon gives me hesitation. Lets go Brandon!!!

 

[JimNM]

C'Cut - on the plus side, gas in NM is ONLY 4.35 a gallon...

 

[jdwarren]

My granddaughter (12 yrs old) shot her first RMAC target last weekend. She had tried a couple 100 yd paper targets in the past, but this was her first try at an actual RMAC target. Conditions were about average for this range, not great, but not bad. She was shooting my son's 30 cal, so I did not bother up-plugging, but I doubt it would have helped. Her score was 209. If scored like the K100-suggested target, her score would have been 228. Could have been a bit of luck, but still pretty good for an inexperienced benchrest shooter (she shoots quite a bit in other venues).

I have been told, and I believe, that when designing a course of fire (target in this case), you should try for a format where an expert shooter would likely score between 90 and 95%. A mediocre shooter should score around 75%. This seems to pretty well match the results that are shot at EBR and RMAC. On these targets 75% would be about 187, 90% would be about 225, and 95% would be about 237.

I, personally, believe that if "possible" scores (in this case 250) are shot on more than an extremely rare basis, the target it too easy. Maybe the K100 target would be better; I don't know. I wonder if it leaves much room for shooters to get better. I guess the only way to find out is to give it a try.

--Jim

 

[thomasair]

I don’t disagree with you much on the percentages, JD.

The problem with that comparative basis is that a perfect card is not a 250….it’s a 250 25x.

There’s a lot of room to improve beyond a 250…and I believe plain 250s on the K100 card would be ultra rare.

Mike

 

[jdwarren]

I don’t disagree with you much on the percentages, JD.

The problem with that comparative basis is that a perfect card is not a 250….it’s a 250 25x.

There’s a lot of room to improve beyond a 250…and I believe plain 250s on the K100 card would be ultra rare.

Mike

I was under the impression that the X-count was NOT part of the actual score, it was only to be used as a tie-breaker, like in other competitions. If X-count is actually a part of the score, why is it that only competitors who are tied can use it? For instance, I shot in the Sportsman class at the 2021 RMAC. If an X were actually counted into the score, why could my X-count not increase my score like it might have if I had been tied with another competitor? If the X were counted as an 11, I would have tied for 1st rather than finishing in 4th. I understand that is how it works and I am fine with it.

I have always felt that a 249-24X would be more difficult to shoot than a 250-0X. All those X's mean absolutely nothing when comparing these two scores. But, that's the way it works and I am fine with it. However it is, or will be, ruled, I will live with it, but if I don't voice my opinion, then I would be wrong, too. In any case, I look forward to trying the new format if it comes about.

--Jim

 

[Joef]

The X count is always used in Benchrest competition, the problem is that not many really understand BR competition and what it entitles. Shooting one card where a 250 is unobtainable is not the norm by any means when it comes to true BR competition.

I do not know what the exact size of the 10 ring is on the EBR or RMAC targets, but will guess it is smaller than .500 which makes me chuckle cause a centerfire IBS 10 ring for score is .500 at 100 yards

Like Mike stated it is the 250-25x. A 250 by all means will be reached by those experts you stated above it is the X count which makes the difference and not many perfect scores have been reached. A 250 should always be reachable.



Joe

 

[jdwarren]

The X count is always used in Benchrest competition, the problem is that not many really understand BR competition and what it entitles. Shooting one card where a 250 is unobtainable is not the norm by any means when it comes to true BR competition.

I do not know what the exact size of the 10 ring is on the EBR or RMAC targets, but will guess it is smaller than .500 which makes me chuckle cause a centerfire IBS 10 ring for score is .500 at 100 yards

Like Mike stated it is the 250-25x. A 250 by all means will be reached by those experts you stated above it is the X count which makes the difference and not many perfect scores have been reached. A 250 should always be reachable.



Joe

The 10-ring on the RMAC target is .520"... about what you expected. Add the .35" plug and you have a ring you can hit with an accurate .9 MOA shot every time. If you are shooting 250 regularly, you will probably hit some X's just by accident.

I suspect that the targets used for HBR & VFS in IBS and NBRSA were created a long time ago and it was much less common to shoot a 250 agg than it is today. The guns, ammo, optics, and shooter abilities have probably improved considerably since the targets were designed. Since the targets have not "improved" along with the results, it has just became accepted that X-count has became part of the score. There is nothing wrong with that if it is OK with you.

If a 250 is always reachable and the X-count is to determine the winner, what is the point of the other rings. The target could be much smaller and less expensive if you only print the X-ring. Heck, you could even throw in a 9-ring and a (larger) 10-ring to give the poor shooters something to shoot at.

Even though a 100yd HBR target has a .0625" X-dot, and the ASA target has .200" X-ring, my personal belief is that there is more "luck" involved with scoring and X with an airgun than there is with a centerfire bench gun.

If you leave the X-ring the same size and increase the size of the 10-ring, I believe that shooting the high score becomes even more luck-based than it is now. Base scores will be higher, but the number of X's will remain about the same. The only thing you have accomplished is to give a less-good shooter more opportunity to win with more "lucky" X shots. A shooter who might drop a few points on the current target might end up with the same score as someone who would not have dropped any points but win if he shot one more X. The new layout makes it more difficult for an expert to win against a lucky less-expert. Maybe that is the goal.

Just my opinion.

--Jim

 

[Loufish]

I want to shoot a 6 card 1500-150x and let the rest of you to fight for 2nd place.

An appropriate sized target designed exclusively for 100 yard pellet can give us that hope. 

As Joe said, "A 250 should always be reachable."

 

[thomasair]

Jim….nobody will likely shoot a 250 at 100y with pellets in Raton even with the 9 becoming the 10. We want to try a bigger target.

The real question is do you plan to attend?

If we don’t get at least a dozen new people to come and shoot 100….it isn’t gonna happen. It will literally be twice the work for us…maybe more.

Mike 

 

[Centercut]

C'Cut - on the plus side, gas in NM is ONLY 4.35 a gallon...

That’s our normal price in San Diego prior to the current fiasco. Both our cars are diesels and diesel fuel is ONLY about $6.50 a gallon. ;(

 

[jps2486]

I wish it were a postal match. We could send an entry fee, you could mail us the target, we shoot, and have a witness. Either score locally and scan the targets to return or mail them back.

 

[adijorio]

That’s an interesting idea and perhaps you should pursue it.
However, the issue of course that everyone would be shooting in different conditions with unverifiable ammunition and distances. The group setting eliminates most possibilities for dishonesty.

 

[tommyb]

Back in 2020, AoA sponsored a “virtual only” EBR 100 yard match because Covid-19 prevented everyone from attending the annual face to face EBR event. Many on this forum participated ( including me) and we all had a lot of fun shooting large officially sized EBR targets at our home ranges.

Paul’s idea above ( I.e., “postal match”) is a good one, but I tend to agree that if you are trying to really have a thorough official 100 yard bench rest competition which strictly follows and adheres to the rules, I think it has to be done in a face to face in person format. This is especially true since this would be a new event added to the annual N50 Nationals for the first time.

Tom 

 

[jdwarren]

Jim….nobody will likely shoot a 250 at 100y with pellets in Raton even with the 9 becoming the 10. We want to try a bigger target.

The real question is do you plan to attend?

If we don’t get at least a dozen new people to come and shoot 100….it isn’t gonna happen. It will literally be twice the work for us…maybe more.

Mike

I have no problem with the bigger target, just putting in my $.000002 worth. I would actually be a bit disappointed if you don't try it. My only worry is that the target could, someday, become "easy" enough that it becomes commonplace to determine 1st place using a tie-breaker (X-count). In my mind that would introduce a lot of luck into the results. I would much rather see the X-ring be scored as an 11 so it becomes of value to all shooters, not just those that happen to be tied with another. I realize that that is not likely to happen.

I definitely hope to attend the N50 Nationals. I hesitate to promise anything because I have several miladies, arthritis, gout, bad back, etc, that sometimes get bad enough that I can't participate. I would really hate to promise to be there and then not show up. I am not a fan of shooting airguns at 100 yds, but I would do so just to support the sport. My main desire is to shoot 50 yd pellets. 

If my son is able to get off work, he would really like to come too. You ought to contact Justin or Austen at Utah Airguns and see if they were interested in being a sponsor. That might help my son and one or two others to get some time off to come to the match.

--Jim

 

[tommyb]

Jim….nobody will likely shoot a 250 at 100y with pellets in Raton even with the 9 becoming the 10. We want to try a bigger target.

The real question is do you plan to attend?

If we don’t get at least a dozen new people to come and shoot 100….it isn’t gonna happen. It will literally be twice the work for us…maybe more.

Mike

I have no problem with the bigger target, just putting in my $.000002 worth. I would actually be a bit disappointed if you don't try it. My only worry is that the target could, someday, become "easy" enough that it becomes commonplace to determine 1st place using a tie-breaker (X-count). In my mind that would introduce a lot of luck into the results. I would much rather see the X-ring be scored as an 11 so it becomes of value to all shooters, not just those that happen to be tied with another. I realize that that is not likely to happen.

I definitely hope to attend the N50 Nationals. I hesitate to promise anything because I have several miladies, arthritis, gout, bad back, etc, that sometimes get bad enough that I can't participate. I would really hate to promise to be there and then not show up. I am not a fan of shooting airguns at 100 yds, but I would do so just to support the sport. My main desire is to shoot 50 yd pellets. 

If my son is able to get off work, he would really like to come too. You ought to contact Justin or Austen at Utah Airguns and see if they were interested in being a sponsor. That might help my son and one or two others to get some time off to come to the match.

--Jim

Jim

I don’t think you have to worry about too many folks shooting a “250” at 100 yards with pellets, and then using the ‘X’ ring hits for tiebreakers. I hope I live long enough to see this phenomenon. Even with the proposed 1.35” 10 ring, this will be very difficult.