Tuning Why do others not copy twistrates FX superior liners

[Removed]

Twist rate isn't everything, the bore size and consistency is a bit harder to do. All manufactures have their twist rate design and twist rate calculators are free online. Anyone in the barrel business knows what twist rate is needed for which length slugs. However the problem is also the need to make multiple barrels with different twist rates, that again goes back to my lack of interest from barrel makers theory as airgun barrel sale is MUICH lower in volume compared to their PB barrels.

In .22 cal FX currently has:
- superior 1:24 - slugs up to 25 grain
- superior heavy 1:16 - slugs 25-33 grain
- superior heavy 800mm 1:14 - Slugs 35-40 grain

To put things in perspective here is a list of current .22 FX barrels:
300mm superior
500mm superior
500mm superior heavy
600mm superior
600mm superior heavy
700mm superior
700mm superior heavy
800mm superior heavy(there might be 2 versions too)

So how many twist rate and barrels are LW or CZ willing to make for low volume low cost airgun barrels? Obviously LW will make custom twist rate IF you pay enough.......twist rate is NOT the issue, producing them and cost are the issue. Plus FX barrel manufacturing process is MUCH simpler so that also enables them to make many different barrels with different twist rates and calibers and length. FX is the only airgun manufacture that produce their own barrel at scale so they can produce as many or few of each twist rate as they wish, no one else can do that.


To sum it up: anyone can copy FX design but it's FX manufacturing prowess that no one can copy!!!


Then there is the tune, most traditional airguns that doesn't have some sort of modern balanced valve with light hammer that creates efficiency and power at the same time will not shoot slugs well. Good example is if the gun has a straight pull back bolt action then the hammer is very heavy because if they increase the spring rate then it's very hard to cock the gun. Side lever solves most of that problem but the valve still need to be efficient and delivers a lot more power as slugs have much higher friction. slugs are slower than pellets at the same weight and then most slugs are MUCH heavier, not many guns out there has the ability to push a .22 cal 38 or 40 grain slugs at over 1000 fps that's a repeater, adjustable, light.......



.........but FX is all marketing.

FX are some of the most inefficient Airguns on the market, quit blowing smoke. In every caliber they require so much to make power, look at the .35 it's horribly underpowered. Who cares if it's a repeater? Ooops I missed, thank God I have 29 more tries to hit that bird on the wire. Lol are we talking about barrels? I've got a little experience...no reason to sugar coat it. The FACT is the barrel systems are awful, chasing poi is a constant and consistent problem. Am I wrong? Don't believe me? Shoot a group and then grab that barrel and flex it up and down, then shoot another group and let's see the outcome....#flexchallenge The want and need has overgrown the design hence the reason a few of these high profile salesman are using TJ barrels in the guns they showcase...they won't tell you that though will they? The fact is this marketing nonsense has gone way to far and the reality of this WILL be hitting the fan. People are super happy with the guns and that's great, I've enjoyed a few myself but moved on.

 

[Removed]

It’s more than just marketing… https://rockymountainairgunchallenge.com/rmac-2022/
View attachment 310765

View attachment 310766

It looks like they compete against themselves from the looks of it....what's the ratio here?

 

[450BM]

I guess if it’s just an FX event maybe the other manufacturers should do the same. They can get all their own youtubers too, isn’t anything stopping them.

 

[Sell682]

It looks like they compete against themselves from the looks of it....what's the ratio here?

An event heavily sponsored by FX has a majority of FX shooters … no way.. EBR has Daystate which most FX sponsored shooter boycots and we see more Daystate … umm..

 

[bigHUN]

A while back I ordered some barrels from Russia (for my Leshiy2) and arrived with a very last train (boat actually).
This is how the rifling looks like:

Do you recognize some similarities? And this land-grove shape is not simple to make. The barrels were shooting well, but I made some "improvements"
Polished that lead-in, also fire lapped.

 

[qball]

FX are some of the most inefficient Airguns on the market, quit blowing smoke. In every caliber they require so much to make power, look at the .35 it's horribly underpowered. Who cares if it's a repeater? Ooops I missed, thank God I have 29 more tries to hit that bird on the wire. Lol are we talking about barrels? I've got a little experience...no reason to sugar coat it. The FACT is the barrel systems are awful, chasing poi is a constant and consistent problem. Am I wrong? Don't believe me? Shoot a group and then grab that barrel and flex it up and down, then shoot another group and let's see the outcome....#flexchallenge The want and need has overgrown the design hence the reason a few of these high profile salesman are using TJ barrels in the guns they showcase...they won't tell you that though will they? The fact is this marketing nonsense has gone way to far and the reality of this WILL be hitting the fan. People are super happy with the guns and that's great, I've enjoyed a few myself but moved on.

Hummm……FX can be tuned to be the most inefficient and inaccurate airguns out there just like a hammer are the worst thumb smashers out there….bad hammer!!! If FX was to be blamed for user errors then it is indeed their fault that the guns are infinitely adjustable. While a fault in your eyes but a feature I can’t live without.


To be envious of someone else’s marketing success is admission of one’s own marketing failure.



Edit: Impact did have some minor POI change but a carbon barrel tensioner fixed that for good, I blame the stupid oring. I did flex challenge on my crown and Dreamline and so far no POI change, this including bumping the barrel and resting the gun on the barrel in a rack. Then again I baby my guns and don’t drive over them with my truck cause I don’t do that even with my PB rigs with MUCH heavier barrels.

 

[Vetmx]

The only thing FX figured out has nothing to do with the whole little metal straw they sell. What they figured out was the first part of the straw. It works good enough for the masses and a bunch of different projectiles that they might shoot. Good enough is not great when it comes to slugs. But it works fine for keeping the lead industry pumping. If you can’t see this and believe FX has holy grail barrels I won’t go into depth about how superior a real barrel can be to a Superior if you do it right. What I will tell you is it’s not worth it for other manufacturers to do right now. A LW, CZ or TJ done right and attached to a gun would be a one trick pony with a slug. It would still shoot pellets great if you turn the gun down.

 

[qball]

An event heavily sponsored by FX has a majority of FX shooters … no way.. EBR has Daystate which most FX sponsored shooter boycots and we see more Daystate … umm..

It’s more of an east coast vs west coast thing.

Kidding aside I think the RMAC event condition suits FX guns better. Crazy unpredictable wind with wildly wide adjustments range is hard to adjust on a more traditional bench rest setup. If wind isn’t wild a Thomas bench rest setup is the setup to beat. That being said what’s price and availability of a Thomas bench rest setup? Would it cost 300 dollars to change the barrel on a Thomas?

 

[Franklink]

A while back I ordered some barrels from Russia (for my Leshiy2) and arrived with a very last train (boat actually).
This is how the rifling looks like:

View attachment 310769

Do you recognize some similarities? And this land-grove shape is not simple to make. The barrels were shooting well, but I made some "improvements"
Polished that lead-in, also fire lapped.

Land and groove pattern looks exactly like some old stock Korean barrels I bought from the guy in New York two or three years ago. He used to import them back in the late 90s? Career barrels I believe they were.

The shape of the lands looks pretty similar to a TJ barrel I bought a couple months ago, although fewer in the TJ than in your photo.

I'm guessing that's not the answer you were looking for.

 

[qball]

A while back I ordered some barrels from Russia (for my Leshiy2) and arrived with a very last train (boat actually).
This is how the rifling looks like:

View attachment 310769

Do you recognize some similarities? And this land-grove shape is not simple to make. The barrels were shooting well, but I made some "improvements"
Polished that lead-in, also fire lapped.

Shot my custom TJ pellet barrel side by side with my FX barrel, thanks to the marketing I can’t tell the difference with pellets. It was fairly pellet fussy too and didn’t really like crosman CPHP so I sold it.

 

[mercado]

It’s more of an east coast vs west coast thing.
View attachment 310771


Kidding aside I think the RMAC event condition suits FX guns better. Crazy unpredictable wind with wildly wide adjustments range is hard to adjust on a more traditional bench rest setup. If wind isn’t wild a Thomas bench rest setup is the setup to beat. That being said what’s price and availability of a Thomas bench rest setup? Would it cost 300 dollars to change the barrel on a Thomas?

Even when I really don't like those sponsored YouTubers, or the brand smokes marketing... there is really nothing to more discuss with the point you brought up .. in competition like that ..there is simply no substitute to adjustability and no other gun manufacturer has that..up to this day.. so there is no mystery in why there is so many FX in competition shooters want every advantage they could get their hands on to win... and as why other airgun manufacturer doesn't do the same with the twist rates .. they simply don't see the profit on that..because the process of making barrels like the one used by RTI will be simply way more expensive..although I was really expecting a variety of twist rates from rti . Not those one does it all barrel..

 

[Vetmx]

Shot my custom TJ pellet barrel side by side with my FX barrel, thanks to the marketing I can’t tell the difference with pellets. It’s not a slug barrel so slugs were ok at best, it was fairly pellet fussy too and didn’t really like crosman CPHP so I sold it.
View attachment 310775

If you had the means to chamber it for a specific slug, you would change your tune. Airgun guys only know to keep feeding a barrel something and hoping they get lucky. That’s not the way it works with real barrels.

 

[thumper]

@Glem.Chally you better get in here quick.... they are picking on FX again.

 

[qball]

If you had the means to chamber it for a specific slug, you would change your tune. Airgun guys only know to keep feeding a barrel something and hoping they get lucky. That’s not the way it works with real barrels.

the barrel was pellet specific with very tight choke so expectation for it to shoot slugs wasn't high. I did try 0.216 light slugs and they worked better but still just ok. My point is even a fancy custom pellet specific barrel didn’t really have any real accuracy advantage over my soda straw shooting pellets side by side.


While I agree chambering is important but that is just one part of the barrel puzzle.

 

[Vetmx]

I didn’t know that barrel had a choke. My bad. Saw you had it for sale but it was already too short to give me something to work with. Glad I didn’t buy it.

 

[Glem.Chally]

@Glem.Chally you better get in here quick.... they are picking on FX again.

I pick my battles bub, this one doesn't interest me.

 

[ladwict]

many super postings . Thank you very much for the insights. The main reason I started this post is that I am rather lured by the recent releases of the BRK Ghost and Kalibrgun Springbok but I fail to find prove that those barrels can shoot slugs as well ( accurate) as a FX superior barrel . I would trade my FX instantly for one of those brands in case they could . ( I like the built quality of the other brands a little more because of the sturdiness) with the fx you can equally shoot pellets and slugs well after little ammunition selection tinkering. Why do I not find such results with the others? I believe this has nothing to do with marketing and youtube but with a simple testing and exposure on the internet from the BRK, Kalibrguns and other non FX brands themselves. ( wich they obviously are not capable of doing thus far exept from an individual airgun owner here and there with his individual gun …..unfortunately). Why not a bold statement from BKR with their Ghost introduction that this gun shoots slugs very well as everybody in the world can see that slugs are taking the market in rapid speed. ( not even considering the upcoming FX Halo invasion soon……) . No word mentioned about slugs in both introductions of these new pcp guns recently…..For me this can only indicate that the manufacturer is not very confident in that area or even more so ..they know that slugs are a drama in those guns to start with. Again I might be completely wrong with my assumptions but at least the lack of any positive signal those new releases can shoot slugs well do hold me back to buy one. I cannot imagine I am alone here in my perception. ………

 

[L.Leon]

@ladwict, ”everybody can see that slugs are taking the market”? Where? The majority of airgun shooters, use pellets. Slugs overtaking pellets in use? A marketing pipe dream… No buying an airgun because it won’t shoot slugs? Is a non issue… slugs have many disadvantages that are overlooked, particularly in practical pesting applications around equipment and livestock…

 

[ladwict]

@ladwict, ”everybody can see that slugs are taking the market”? Where? The majority of airgun shooters, use pellets. Slugs overtaking pellets in use? A marketing pipe dream… No buying an airgun because it won’t shoot slugs? Is a non issue… slugs have many disadvantages that are overlooked, particularly in practical pesting applications around equipment and livestock…

A diabolo even for short distances will be ”taken over” by more efficient ammunition types within a few years from now. The ballistic coeeficient values and the long range stability of diabolos is not “up to date” anymore for most of the higher level airgun profiles ( in terms of power/ velocity and precision ) these days. Just look back 2-3 years ago where a slug was only an exotic product and check as per today how many are on offer. This (r) evolution has just started yet and is unstoppable. Not “a marketing pipe dream“ but a fact supported by the current developments in the market. Sure there will always be pellets and pellet shooters just as there are still film roll buyers and shooters since the digitial photography took over but slugs are just the next step that is undeniable from my perspective and the reason I swtched from Edgun brand to FX. Even though I prefer the workmanship and sturdiness of the Edgun ( same counts for Kalibrgun , Vulcan, BKR, Daystate and some others that are all better built in my opinion but not capable of shooting the “new standard” aka slugs as well.

 

[rigbymauser]

Back in 2005 I had a Theoben Rapid MK2 in .25cal. I casted slugs using a RCBS .25ACP 50grain bullet mold. The barrel used by THeoben for their .25cal airguns was made by BSA. The bullets needed some sizing in order to fit and I ended up with having a bulletsizer made(polished) up in .2505cal. From here I felt I had a slugshooter. Hitting the bottom of 12gauge was no problem at 30meters. The trajectory was ofcouse way more arched however from our porch we have a slope some 200meters away and here one could see the impacts. I was able several times to hit spots(1x1ft) of dry ground. The BSA barrel had a conventional styled squared rifling, but the grooves weren`t that deep. My point is simple. A traditional rifling profile ought to work like it has always been doing for bullets.