Tuning Why do others not copy twistrates FX superior liners

[ladwict]

Back in 2005 I had a Theoben Rapid MK2 in .25cal. I casted slugs using a RCBS .25ACP 50grain bullet mold. The barrel used by THeoben for their .25cal airguns was made by BSA. The bullets needed some sizing in order to fit and I ended up with having a bulletsizer made(polished) up in .2505cal. From here I felt I had a slugshooter. Hitting the bottom of 12gauge was no problem at 30meters. The trajectory was ofcouse way more arched however from our porch we have a slope some 200meters away and here one could see the impacts. I was able several times to hit spots(1x1ft) of dry ground. The BSA barrel had a conventional styled squared rifling, but the grooves weren`t that deep. My point is simple. A traditional rifling profile ought to work like it has always been doing for bullets.

Well….a airgun projectile is shot with max of let’s say 1050 fps. And in a traditional bullet rifle with manyfold of that. That is probably a huge factor in the mix of ballistics…If the same rules would apply to an airgun as to a powder burner things would have been simple from the beginning I guess. Airguns have their specific aspects to take into accounts I guess as far as barrel profiles and ammunition combo’s and many other things are concerned. Explorations and development of this obviously stopped after invention of the diabolo ammunition sooooo long ago. Till recent years ..( thanks to “the marketing machines” )

 

[L.Leon]

@ladwict, no one said that diabolos are the ultimate projectile. But getting into airguns to try and duplicate firearm ballistics? Getting into airguns to shoot past 150-200 yards? Is something a select few can do consistently with repeatable accuracy. And yes, marketing is leading the way. I know I did not get into airguns to shoot past 100 yards. But many have been convinced of just that… ”with these here slugs, and these barrels” you too can cripple animals past 100 yards… Yes, slugs are here to stay, but they won’t be supplanting pellets.

 

[Joedirt199]

Haven't you heard? If you copy anything, or make something very similar to FX, they sue you.

 

[steve123]

In the firearms world most of the barrels we airgunners think are "good barrels" would be considered "not so good" in comparison to barrel Co's like Bartlein and Kreiger. Of course those Co's barrels are around $400 for just a blank but quite a few world records have been won with them. In 600Y BR one guy shot a .4" group which is crazy but sub 1" isn't uncommon.

Then there's the gunsmithing part of this equation. It has to be done with pride and precision in mind. There are hacks and there are masters.

After that the consistency of the projectiles. It's disgusting when we buy a whole sleeve of pellets that don't shoot as well as the last sleeve we bought, right?! Tough it amazes me that pellets with messed up skirts, dents in heads, etc, can shoot as good as they do sometimes.

It "seems" that the trend for pellets is slower twist rates help prevent spiraling?? and these barrels will probably only shoot the lighter slugs okay.
But many people that shoot slugs would rather have faster twist rates to stabilize heavier slugs. Then the heavier a slug of typical design per caliber the more drag it will have in the barrel which is another hurdle.

I gotta say, man oh man, Mike N's personal BR slug rifle encompasses as close to the perfect balance of the best attributes of the ^^^^^I've experienced as far as a single shot goes!

 

[ladwict]

@ladwict, no one said that diabolos are the ultimate projectile. But getting into airguns to try and duplicate firearm ballistics? Getting into airguns to shoot past 150-200 yards? Is something a select few can do consistently with repeatable accuracy. And yes, marketing is leading the way. I know I did not get into airguns to shoot past 100 yards. But many have been convinced of just that… ”with these here slugs, and these barrels” you too can cripple animals past 100 yards… Yes, slugs are here to stay, but they won’t be supplanting pellets.

1) “ no one said that diabolos are the ultimate projectile”
That is correct , but why do you mention that ?
2)
I never said that duplicating firearms ballistics was the way with airguns . On the contrary when you read my postings well.
3)
Also I did not mention anything about shooting pas5 150-200 yards .
4)
And indeed with any ammunition at any distance with any weapon you can cripple animals …. so I am sorry but I do not get what your post is referring to in this thread and to my attention….

 

[qball]

In the firearms world most of the barrels we airgunners think are "good barrels" would be considered "not so good" in comparison to barrel Co's like Bartlein and Kreiger. Of course those Co's barrels are around $400 for just a blank but quite a few world records have been won with them. In 600Y BR one guy shot a .4" group which is crazy but sub 1" isn't uncommon.

Then there's the gunsmithing part of this equation. It has to be done with pride and precision in mind. There are hacks and there are masters.

After that the consistency of the projectiles. It's disgusting when we buy a whole sleeve of pellets that don't shoot as well as the last sleeve we bought, right?! Tough it amazes me that pellets with messed up skirts, dents in heads, etc, can shoot as good as they do sometimes.

It "seems" that the trend for pellets is slower twist rates help prevent spiraling?? and these barrels will probably only shoot the lighter slugs okay.
But many people that shoot slugs would rather have faster twist rates to stabilize heavier slugs. Then the heavier a slug of typical design per caliber the more drag it will have in the barrel which is another hurdle.

I gotta say, man oh man, Mike N's personal BR slug rifle encompasses as close to the perfect balance of the best attributes of the ^^^^^I've experienced as far as a single shot goes!

My original impression was good number of air gunner are serious CF/PBers but by some of the posts it doesn't appear to be the case. Like you said good PB barrel starts at 3-400 for a blank and can go over 1000 pretty quick by the time all said and done. Everyone here all go gaga over hammer forged barrels but in PB world those are cheapest barrel one can by or on all the entry level $500 rifles. As you mentioned Mike N's bench rest setup is ridiculously good but it certain isn't 2000-3000 dollar range, he probably spent more than $2000 on just finding that barrel. Not many knows this but he custom order those barrels with his specifications/twist rates and then pick the best few and then hand lap, polish and finished for his guns. Are they better than FX soda straws? Hell yes! But they are a tad more expensive and a tad longer wait to get one.


Pellets are opposite of slugs or bullets in ballistics or barrel requirements, original airguns have smooth bore. FX found a good happy twist rate that shoots both pretty darn well but still a compromise and they know that, that's why they are going to slow twist rate for better pellet accuracy but that means adding yet another barrel to the line up. who can do that at scale? Every gun manufactures knows this, this is no secret nor patten on twist rate. Only reason they are NOT "copying" is simply they are not willing to buy the barrels. To be fair it's not as easy as buy FX like barrel, they need to order a bunch of barrels to test and find the right one then order them in bulk. It's a time consuming and expensive process. FX is the only manufacture invested and keep investing heavily in R&D on barrels. BSA makes their own barrel but it's Gamo now and they refuse to do anything different besides sell a ton of Walmart Gamos, that said the BSA Gamos are damn fine entry pellet rifles.

 

[airprsr]

No other brand has even remotely close to the volume on guns in the same price range…….they all want to but apparently only lacking a youtuber. Question indeed is why don’t they copy FX marketing? ANYONE can start a YouTube channel so they should go do it.

what they lack is a GREAT youtuber. There’s no doubt Dubber and Ted are Great youtubers. Lots of times in the evening my kids are begging; “Dad, I wanna watch Ted”

 

[ladwict]

Haven't you heard? If you copy anything, or make something very similar to FX, they sue you.

What is the point you want to make with your post ? Isn’t is so in this world that suing a company can only be meaningful and succesfull if you have good legal arguments and reasons to do so ? My strong believe is that without being a FX fanboy that FX has brought by far the most innovations to our sport in the past decade. And the word “marketing “ implies that a company does offer stuff that “ the market” “ the customer” wants Instead of producing whatthey can and then see if the market wil buy it. So in the case of FX they were the first marketing orientated airgun companies producing what the consumer wanted hence bringing progress to the industry . By doing so to all our advantage they now get the label “ marketing machine” in a negative sense and that does not seem right in my perception. If marketing oriented companies like FX were not here we would never have come any further than cocking barrels…..

 

[qball]

what they lack is a GREAT youtuber. There’s no doubt Dubber and Ted are Great youtubers. Lots of times in the evening my kids are begging; “Dad, I wanna watch Ted”

Indeed they are freaking awesome, as soon as they release a video I'll watch it within hours.

Like the good old saying: money talks and bullish!t walks so the other manufactures can cough up the money to some GREAT YouTubers too or talk to Matt and Ted to use their guns. They are free lancers after all.

 

[airprsr]

no reason to sugar coat it. The FACT is the barrel systems are awful, chasing poi is a constant and consistent problem. Am I wrong? Don't believe me? Shoot a group and then grab that barrel and flex it up and down, then shoot another group and let's see the outcome....#flexchallenge The want and need has overgrown the design hence the reason a few of these high profile salesman are using TJ barrels in the guns they showcase...they won't tell you that though will they? The fact is this marketing nonsense has gone way to far and the reality of this WILL be hitting the fan. People are super happy with the guns and that's great, I've enjoyed a few myself but moved on.

Im definitely no authority on this but I certainly agree with the concerns on poi shift. I prefer some other brands over fx but I tend to end up owning fx guns. Why is that? It’s because I’m a bargain hunter and fx guns tend to end up being resold at bargain prices more than other guns. This is more evidence of the marketing at work. The only way I tend to end up keeping an fx is if I can mod it with the carbon fiber barrel tensioning system. This improves the poi problem somewhat.

 

[dizzums]

more to it than just the twist rate .. theres bore diameter, feature diameter, variable twist rate and diameter down the tube and bore finish .., and unless you redesign to use a liner a regular barrel blank has to be machined to those exacting parameters and all under a price point thats not pushing the gun price up a couple more g's ..tall order ...

 

[ladwict]

Thanks for a lot of input meanwhile guys but still the reality is that no other brand than FX shoots pellets and slugs equally well. The best explanation/ reply to my openings question to my idea is that the costs and efforts to copy the same range of barrels like FX has are a real hurdle. ( thanks Qball)

In .22 cal FX currently has 3 twist rates:
- superior 1:24 - slugs up to 25 grain
- superior heavy 1:16 - slugs 25-33 grain
- superior heavy 800mm 1:14 - Slugs 35-40 grain

To put things in perspective here is a list of current .22 FX barrels:
300mm superior
500mm superior
500mm superior heavy
600mm superior
600mm superior heavy
700mm superior
700mm superior heavy
800mm superior heavy(there might be 2 versions too)

When I find in this perspective that e.g. the new BKR Ghost has to live with the same single version of a 1:16 CZ barrel it is obvious that FX will be my choice till the day I know this Ghost ( or any other brand) will be able to shoot pellets and slugs equally well . Despite fragile construction issues I also encounter in my FX products and despite the fact that I am annoyed by the idea that one sometimes has to buy aftermarket stuff to “stabilize” the barrel/ liner in order to avoid poi changes during “normal” use.

 

[qball]

not going try to sugar coat that the STX barrel SYSTEM (not the liner) does have many parts and has consistency challenges if not setup right. Personally I hate those orings, I always replace those orings with the carbon liner sleeves and IMHO FX should make that factory part of their barrel system. Their newer superlite system on Dreamline and especially crowns are just perfection……especially if you add the carbon liner sleeve the way I do.


The combination of flexibility, light weight and cost can not be touch by anyone by a long shot.

 

[athlon_oved]

Clearly FX is better at marketing, zero doubt about it!!! However, without their manufacturing how will all these people get their guns to be on YouTube? How long have people waited for their DWolf? How many are out there even today?

Some guns can shoot some slugs well, my Impact haven’t found a quality slug in the right size that it can’t shoot well. My impact in .22 have shot every NSA slugs from 17 grain to 38 grain slug with just a liner change, all with great results once the tune is correct. Then it shot every NSA slugs 26 to 43 grain in the current .25 configuration, 80 FPE laser to 300 yards and it doesn’t have the 800mm barrel. Call it marketing all you all want but I don’t know any other guns that can do the same.


No other brand has even remotely close to the volume on guns in the same price range…….they all want to but apparently only lacking a youtuber. Question indeed is why don’t they copy FX marketing? ANYONE can start a YouTube channel so they should go do it.

I couldn't say it better.
Some people can't get over that FX has overrun the market because of good decisions and outstanding build quality and manufacturing on their part. All FX has to do is keep cranking out killer products that people like and they will keep all the others in the dust trying to play catch up. It's evident because everyone including Daystate, AirArms, and HW, Brocock, LCS, & (insert any manufacture you want here) are trying to get in on the FX Impact Marketshare with their crap copies that no one wants.
I love watching it as it drives people to compete, and we all win in the end.

 

[450BM]

Indeed they are freaking awesome, as soon as they release a video I'll watch it within hours.

Like the good old saying: money talks and bullish!t walks so the other manufactures can cough up and money to some GREAT YouTubers too or talk to Matt and Ted to use their guns. They are free lancers after all.

AirTac Hunting is another good one, Matt’s partner at Patriot Arms. AirHunter Gerard isn’t bad either.

I blame Ted for making me want an FX Impact, Matt made me pull the trigger.

 

[qball]

I love watching it as it drives people to compete, and we all win in the end.

 

[Deleted 45061]

Indeed they are freaking awesome, as soon as they release a video I'll watch it within hours.

Like the good old saying: money talks and bullish!t walks so the other manufactures can cough up and money to some GREAT YouTubers too or talk to Matt and Ted to use their guns. They are free lancers after all.

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[Removed]

Indeed they are freaking awesome, as soon as they release a video I'll watch it within hours.

Like the good old saying: money talks and bullish!t walks so the other manufactures can cough up and money to some GREAT YouTubers too or talk to Matt and Ted to use their guns. They are free lancers after all.

Sounds more like a big circle jerk

 

[airprsr]

Dang, this has been a fun thread.

 

[ladwict]

By te way……I was just thinking that the BKR Ghost or Kalibrgun Springbok are so new that it might well be that these pcp‘s shoots slugs and pellets even better than FX products with a superior liner….. Time will tell ( but I don’t expect this to be the case….)
Anyone with good updates on this please let us know in this thread !