Tuning Would you consider this an accurate rifle?
- Thread starter Arzrover
- Start date
@Arzrover introduced me to IFP. It's basically paper field target, scored like a kill zone would be, ANY part of the pellet cuts the outer line and it's considered a "split" getting a 1 or 0 points, instead of 2. Possible 50 points, 2 points per shot. 25 shots.
Good practice. My personal best is a 46, with a .177 USFT. Anything over 40 is pretty dang good though.
American Airguns - International Field Position
American Airguns Website - The first website about airguns, air pistol, air rifle, and accessories.
www.airguns.net
That description makes it sound pretty formal. I've only ever used the printed out copy for personal practice and comparison, never sent copies to any governing body or official person.
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Thanks @Solo1...
Using your measurements, I get a 3/8" average for both.
Looks like we both have some work to do to match @Franklink
Bob
The. 20 is magic I tell ya! I couldnt even get close with a .177 just now to what I did with two different .20 guns a few nights ago.
Vet .177 this time. 30 yards again, 25 shots in a row for all 3 attempts. 10.34s at 915fps. Surprised how poorly it did. I shot this gun informally, after a recent ft match, and only missed 3 shots in the whole course. Overall I've been happy with this barrel when shooting it from ft position. So we're really splitting hairs here, at least for a field target intended gun. But when being THIS critical, certainly some shots hitting away from the crosshairs, and not wind nor shooter induced.
This first one was with an FX labeled tin (10.34s), I didnt like the drawn in crosshair approach, didn't feel like I could get to the same aim point after the lines were shot once or twice. So, 5x5 shot average group was 0.5688" - 0.177 = 0.3918
Switched targets and also moved to a tin of JSB branded 10.34s. shot 50 consecutive shots here.
First 5x5 averages 0.4012 - 0.177 = 0.2242
The second 5x5 averages 0.4788 - 0.177 = 0.3018
As a data point, this .177 gun that averages between 0.4 and 0.57 inch 5 inch groups @ 30 is good for 93-94% knockdown rate in an ft match setting. And I think 2 or my 3 misses in that match were offhand, so this level of accuracy is representative of probably more like a 99-100% knockdown capable gun, when the operator doesn't do stupid stuff.
I've got another gun or two (and other barrels) that I can try it with, some other time.
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From my 1972 Sheridan with a 24x scope.
Five shots 30 yards.
Three shots with four strokes and two shots with five strokes.
A one inch difference at 30 yards!
Five shots 30 yards.
Three shots with four strokes and two shots with five strokes.
A one inch difference at 30 yards!
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5 groups of 5 shots at 30 yards, Wind=calm, Temp=72 degrees:
#1 - #5 were with my Anschutz 2015, Sub 12 fpe, JSB Exact 8.44 gr. group size ranges from 3/8" to 1/2" outside edge to outside edge.
#6 - #10 were with my MAC 1 Hunter, JSB Exact MRD's 13.43, group size ranges from 3/8" to 7/16" outside edge to outside edge.
#1 - #5 were with my Anschutz 2015, Sub 12 fpe, JSB Exact 8.44 gr. group size ranges from 3/8" to 1/2" outside edge to outside edge.
#6 - #10 were with my MAC 1 Hunter, JSB Exact MRD's 13.43, group size ranges from 3/8" to 7/16" outside edge to outside edge.
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Wasn’t really satisfied with my results the other day so i went out today and shot these groups with the ghost after cleaning the barrel. I’ve come to the conclusion that especially with 177 the only way to prove the potential accuracy is with the gun locked down and indoors. At 30 yds you really wouldn’t think a very slight breeze would move a pellet much but as you can see when it was dead calm i shot my best groups smallest of which is 1/8”. These were shot using the same hold and I regardless of wind. 
Forgot to mention top row is 13 shot at 950 with mod middle 805 with mod and bottom is 805 without mod
Forgot to mention top row is 13 shot at 950 with mod middle 805 with mod and bottom is 805 without mod
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Thanks @Solo1. Some nice groups in that.
Without measurements, it LOOKS like slower is better, both with and without mod.
I'm not understanding what the "top row is 13 shot" means. There are more than 13 shots on the top row.
Agreed about indoor shooting for absolute accuracy determination but it was pretty calm when I shot mine and I shot others for comparison each time I tested.
I took another 0.015" off the choke and it SEEMS better, but the wind came up so that's done for today.
Thanks to @Franklink and @SAZ for their contribution
A side note : when we were testing for the ART project, shooting at 100 yards indoors was actually more difficult and generally, our groups were notably larger than shooting in wind over flags. It's just DIFFICULT to be 100% on wind calls (which we were not, of course)
Bob
Without measurements, it LOOKS like slower is better, both with and without mod.
I'm not understanding what the "top row is 13 shot" means. There are more than 13 shots on the top row.
Agreed about indoor shooting for absolute accuracy determination but it was pretty calm when I shot mine and I shot others for comparison each time I tested.
I took another 0.015" off the choke and it SEEMS better, but the wind came up so that's done for today.
Thanks to @Franklink and @SAZ for their contribution
A side note : when we were testing for the ART project, shooting at 100 yards indoors was actually more difficult and generally, our groups were notably larger than shooting in wind over flags. It's just DIFFICULT to be 100% on wind calls (which we were not, of course)
Bob
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0.282 for row 1 avg
0.276 for row 2 avg
0.291 for row 3 avg
Not much difference after all.
Noticeably better than the first posting.
0.276 for row 2 avg
0.291 for row 3 avg
Not much difference after all.
Noticeably better than the first posting.
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I truly believe that the gun is capable of those tiny holes constantly as i noted when the breeze picked up at all it was taking the pellets the tinyest groups my wind flag on barrel was not moving at all
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I know it's been a few days but just shot this with the .177 USFT.
Top two rows are from the previous posting, bottom five rows of groups are the USFT. Top row of those five was from it benched, bottom four of the 5 were from bumbag and shooting harness. I've shot the USFT very little from a bench and didn't like it this time easier. It's simply a gun to shoot from ft position. And that shows, as that group was my largest from the gun. Benched group was actually 6 groups of five.
Took a bit of shooting to get back in the hang of things with this gun.
Best 5shot average group size (subtracting .177) was 0.252.
The average of all 26, 5 shot groups from the USFT was 0.2778.
Top two rows are from the previous posting, bottom five rows of groups are the USFT. Top row of those five was from it benched, bottom four of the 5 were from bumbag and shooting harness. I've shot the USFT very little from a bench and didn't like it this time easier. It's simply a gun to shoot from ft position. And that shows, as that group was my largest from the gun. Benched group was actually 6 groups of five.
Took a bit of shooting to get back in the hang of things with this gun.
Best 5shot average group size (subtracting .177) was 0.252.
The average of all 26, 5 shot groups from the USFT was 0.2778.
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I wanted to revive this because I've been continuing to tinker with this barrel. Sunday I had an interesting development. I was testing the above barrel to finally hand it off to it's new owner and came upon an interesting result. Now I've tried MANY lubes along my path with airguns and have found that they rarely help accuracy, can hurt accuracy, but generally can extend cleaning intervals, so my use has primarily been about extending cleaning intervals. Since this barrel was really not intended to run high power or velocities, the lube was mainly centered around the NSA 20 cal 18.9s and hoping to be able to switch between the 13.7s, 15.89s, and the 18.9 slugs... with power change, of course.
So I had documented a fairly competitive result w this barrel and 13.7s and 18.9s but decided to test with WD40 as a lube based on recommendations from a high level slug shooter. I cleaned the barrel w Gunzilla, dried it, wiped w WD40, and pulled all of my projectiles from a pad soaked w WD40. It was honestly awful after a few shots. Pulled the barrel... cleaned, but no lead present, then scrubbed with JB Bore and retreated with WD40 and tried again. First few shots were very tight at 30 yds then started jumping all over. The best group of the session was about 3/4" but most were over 1" with all 3 projectiles. The 13.7s @ 800 were the best but still very poor. I'm thinking wth?... how could this barrel that I had previously shot a 10 shot 1" group @ 100 and many pencil holes at 30 and 50, have decayed this much?
After a LOT of teeth gnashing and serious inspection, couldn't come up with an answer. Had to call new owner and confess it sucked but need to find out why.
New day... decided to go back to Gunzilla as a lube... I've used it frequently...
Unbelievable ! ... the groups @ 30 shrunk over a few shots till it was back shooting pencil holes with all 3, now. Better than ever... groups @ 100 were pretty reflective of the great groups @ 30 and 50.
Okay... so any theories about how a rifle can go from over 1" @ 30 to consistent sub 1/4" groups by changing lube? No leading or velocity irregularities at all.
Doesn't make sense to me and I've seen some accuracy decay by lubing/not lubing/changing lube before... just not this bad.
Bob
So I had documented a fairly competitive result w this barrel and 13.7s and 18.9s but decided to test with WD40 as a lube based on recommendations from a high level slug shooter. I cleaned the barrel w Gunzilla, dried it, wiped w WD40, and pulled all of my projectiles from a pad soaked w WD40. It was honestly awful after a few shots. Pulled the barrel... cleaned, but no lead present, then scrubbed with JB Bore and retreated with WD40 and tried again. First few shots were very tight at 30 yds then started jumping all over. The best group of the session was about 3/4" but most were over 1" with all 3 projectiles. The 13.7s @ 800 were the best but still very poor. I'm thinking wth?... how could this barrel that I had previously shot a 10 shot 1" group @ 100 and many pencil holes at 30 and 50, have decayed this much?
After a LOT of teeth gnashing and serious inspection, couldn't come up with an answer. Had to call new owner and confess it sucked but need to find out why.
New day... decided to go back to Gunzilla as a lube... I've used it frequently...
Unbelievable ! ... the groups @ 30 shrunk over a few shots till it was back shooting pencil holes with all 3, now. Better than ever... groups @ 100 were pretty reflective of the great groups @ 30 and 50.
Okay... so any theories about how a rifle can go from over 1" @ 30 to consistent sub 1/4" groups by changing lube? No leading or velocity irregularities at all.
Doesn't make sense to me and I've seen some accuracy decay by lubing/not lubing/changing lube before... just not this bad.
Bob
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Kick that barrel to the curb!!!! Now the other barrel you have been working on is waaaaaay more important....
Darn wife has her ghost all set for FT and it shot realy good on Saturday.
Tony P.
Darn wife has her ghost all set for FT and it shot realy good on Saturday.Tony P.
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Are you an EBR shooter or just a plinker or a hunter?
I am just a hunter. So what I think it is an accurate rifle, may not be at all for an EBR shooter.
The following two shots were just made at 88 yards with what I think is my must accurate rifle (or at least the one that I control the better), my Daystate Wolverine HP .30 Cal non regulated.
The conclusion is: Be happy with your own victories, no matter if you may not make good groups compared to what others can do.
I am just a hunter. So what I think it is an accurate rifle, may not be at all for an EBR shooter.
The following two shots were just made at 88 yards with what I think is my must accurate rifle (or at least the one that I control the better), my Daystate Wolverine HP .30 Cal non regulated.
The conclusion is: Be happy with your own victories, no matter if you may not make good groups compared to what others can do.
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I remember about 15 years ago my old FX Royale 22 would shoot horrible using OneLube and 18's. I had just bought the gun a few weeks beforehand and hadn't shot it much yet but after this happened I was going to take the gun back to AOA thinking it had a bad barrel. This was the lube I/we used back then for our FT guns and it worked great.
Then for the heck of it I tried pellets straight out of the tin and after a few magazines worth it was making ragged holes at 30Y. Go figure?? This was the old smooth twist barrel that FX used at the time.
I use Gunzilla in my Uragan King with those NSA 29 grainers, also the 34gr pellets, and it works well. I can't remember if I tried it in my Thomas HPX using slugs yet so I should give it a try.
These airgun oddities are all weird to me. Darn things are sensitive. Well you know how I am Bobby...I just want to grab the gun and have it be awesome all the time. Not so much with pellets but morso shooting slugs.
Then for the heck of it I tried pellets straight out of the tin and after a few magazines worth it was making ragged holes at 30Y. Go figure?? This was the old smooth twist barrel that FX used at the time.
I use Gunzilla in my Uragan King with those NSA 29 grainers, also the 34gr pellets, and it works well. I can't remember if I tried it in my Thomas HPX using slugs yet so I should give it a try.
These airgun oddities are all weird to me. Darn things are sensitive. Well you know how I am Bobby...I just want to grab the gun and have it be awesome all the time. Not so much with pellets but morso shooting slugs.
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My thought would be that wd is a water dispersing fluid and may be causing some instability in the slug before it hits the choke by a reaction with moisture in the air pushing the slug? Kinda like dieseling in a springer but not?
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I've got three barrel/projectile/speed combos that I use lube with. Other than these three, I shoot everything else "dry."
The third example gave me a very similar experience to yours. Late summer/early fall I realized I needed to figure out what gun I was going to shoot for long range high power field target at EBR so started doing comparisons. The Veteran was used the prior year and put me "in the money." But results were abysmal with it in the comparison testing prior to this year's EBR. I tried all kinds of stuff and just couldnt get the accuracy it was doing before. I eventually realized that back in the summer sometime I'd found some Gunzilla-lubed pellets that had gotten gunked up and decided to move away from the Gunzilla. So I was shooting OneLubed pellets from the Veteran that had previously been decent with Gunzilla-lubed pellets. Going back to Gunzilla in the last month or so returned the previous accuracy in the Veteran.
The lubing to reduce fouling/extend cleaning intervals makes plenty of sense to me. But I also can't wrap my brain around how a lube can make accuracy suffer so drastically. Head scratcher.
- USFT slow twist poly and the .177/10.34s @915-Slick50 OneLube
- Ghost 12 land and groove and the .20/18.9 @880 NSA-Gunzilla
- Veteran 12 land and groove and the .22/25.4MRD @890-Gunzilla
The third example gave me a very similar experience to yours. Late summer/early fall I realized I needed to figure out what gun I was going to shoot for long range high power field target at EBR so started doing comparisons. The Veteran was used the prior year and put me "in the money." But results were abysmal with it in the comparison testing prior to this year's EBR. I tried all kinds of stuff and just couldnt get the accuracy it was doing before. I eventually realized that back in the summer sometime I'd found some Gunzilla-lubed pellets that had gotten gunked up and decided to move away from the Gunzilla. So I was shooting OneLubed pellets from the Veteran that had previously been decent with Gunzilla-lubed pellets. Going back to Gunzilla in the last month or so returned the previous accuracy in the Veteran.
The lubing to reduce fouling/extend cleaning intervals makes plenty of sense to me. But I also can't wrap my brain around how a lube can make accuracy suffer so drastically. Head scratcher.
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This seems to be a thing with small calibre higher velocity airguns the smallest of changes in projectile, vibration, lube anything slightly different can have a dramatic effect. This doesn’t seem so prevalent in larger calibers.
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