XFT Phoenix, Slugs vs Rimfire vs Pellet scores

[Franklink]

This is somewhat of a continuation of the discussion that started in this thread:

How accurate do you think this is for 100 yards in almost calm conditions?

I shot this target today in very slight breeze(almost calm). 10 shots at 100 yards:

www.airgunnation.com

Felt like we (mostly myself) derailed that thread enough so I'm starting this one.

The summary is that Ghostranger169 was curious how his 100 yard slug groups on paper compare to results others are getting. I piped in and cross-referenced this thread, mostly about how slugs haven't been doing very well at 100 yard field target but I may have also slightly stirred the pot by saying slugs are not more accurate than high BC pellets, even out to 100 yards, at least in all the testing that I've done (45fpe and down):

The trend towards slugs…….

I know many of us are still shooting lots of pellets (and will continue to do so), and still enjoying them immensely (myself included). But it’s not really an arguable statement to say that the airgun industry is leaning pretty hard into this...

www.airgunnation.com

Centercut commented that comparing slugs to pellets in XFT has limited utility (which I agree with) for a couple reasons, very few slug shooters show up for XFT, so the numbers are skewed. Furthermore, some of the handful of guys that are frequently at the top of the XFT leaderboards have chosen to stick with high BC pellets, for various reasons.

Centercut pointed out that the high scores in the PRS and NRL divisions of RMAC were from slugs shot at rimfire power levels, which seems to be the direction the high profile comps are going. Which is interesting, because Ben has been allowing actual rimfires to compete at XFT in Phoenix since November (there were a handful of unofficial test runs by rimfire prior to that if I remember correctly). So, that leaves us with some data to compare rimfire scores to pellet scores in Xtreme Field Target.

I'm working nights and mostly trying to keep myself occupied sufficiently to stay awake so did a little digging in past match reports to come up with the following numbers. The "score" colum is the highest rimfire and highest pellet score that month.

The gist of all of this is essentially whether or not slugs are the absolute shiznit like the prevalent claim in the industry right now. Historically, pellets = airguns. But now we have slugs. So the comparison is obviously pellets versus slugs, which is a lot of apples and oranges.

My personal stance (backed by testing) is that: at an equal or similar fpe, a high BC pellet will shoot more accurately than a slug, at least out to 100 yards. But as fpe (and perhaps distance) increases, the slugs probably start to pull ahead. But by then we're talking rimfire power levels, and very nearly rimfire ballistics. More apples and oranges.

So I thought it would be interesting to look at competition results from actual rimfires, against some of the best long range pellet shooters (both guns and trigger pullers). And I'm fully aware that we're dealing with quite a few limitations. First of which is that I understand the PRS and NRL divisions of RMAC went out to 200 yards so this data can't really be extrapolated to that since it's all from a max of 100 yards. Second is that we've got lots more pellet shooters than rimfire shooters coming to XFT matches, so numbers are weighted/skewed in that regard (interestingly enough we actually have more rimfire shooters than slug shooters coming to XFT). The high scores from both pellet and rimfire classes are often from some of the best shooters I know (got Arzrover and Centercut and Nofilters and CactusPilot and Bluebaby? and others as frequent winners on the pellet side and Steve123 and Sturkis as frequent winners on the rimfire side-so both rimfires and pellets are being contested by very skilled shooters).

I'm not sure that I'm trying to extrapolate any conclusions from the information above, just thought it interesting and wanted to share.

 

[pesty3782]

Interesting information....Are you also able to attached slug shooters to the table? I know the times Barbara and I have shot XFT there were not very many slug shooters, but I do recall a few....Are their overall percentages lower then both the pellets and rimfire?

Tony P.

 

[thomasair]

Guns shooting commercially available slugs exhibit poor accuracy compared to pellets at ranges like 50y. This data is from N50 results over the last year and a half.

Rimfire has dominated the N50 sportsman class, but pellets can give them a run in mild to medium conditions. Slugs have been a compete flop in the sportsman class going up against Rimfire….and even comparing them to pellet scores. A poor shooting slug gun doesn’t get better with distance….but it doesn’t fall apart nearly as quickly as pellets once the range increases.

In standard ft….I found that the HN sniper pellets at 12 fpe had a much better BC than the JSB 8.44. Their accuracy was poor by comparison, though. The wind drift advantage was never able to overcome the raw accuracy over many, many tests at my home ft course. No matter how bad the wind was….I never outshot the JSBs with the HNs. It’s a similar thing with slugs vs pellets.

My pro class slug gun is extremely accurate at short ranges….but it is incredibly fussy about a very large number of factors which make it unsuitable for ft use. The internal barrel friction is extremely variable from card to card. This results in a vertical poi shift that cannot be predicted. That would kill you in FT. In BR, you can shoot sighters to see where you are at any time. It’s not uncommon for me to start a 2nd BR card with a vertical poi 1/2” or more different than the 1st card. This is at 50y. It would be greatly magnified at longer ranges. Rimfires do not suffer from the same issues.

Mike

 

[Franklink]

Interesting information....Are you also able to attached slug shooters to the table? I know the times Barbara and I have shot XFT there were not very many slug shooters, but I do recall a few....Are their overall percentages lower then both the pellets and rimfire?

Tony P.

Hey Tony, Yes I could go back through and add slug info. It seemed like there were so few that it wasn't worth including. Some months no slug shooters, other months a slug shooter or two with seemingly equipment difficulties and scores in the single digits.

 

[pesty3782]

It would be a waste of time then…I wasn’t sure how many there were and I do remember a few had issues with equipment when we were there…..might just have to bring my “mini” crown (380mm 22 barrel shooting the 21 grain H&N slugs) I hunt with and see how it holds up

Tony P

 

[Franklink]

Id love to see somebody do well with slugs.

I think the limit is 100fpe so a guy could shoot some pretty heavy ones pretty dang fast (aforementioned nearly rimfire fpe and ballistics) and still be legal.

 

[qball]

I’m gonna give XFT a try with slugs regardless when our local XFT match is put together, hopefully very soon. I did pretty descent with slugs at local higher power airgun event out to 150 yards and most of my misses where Dope related since the targets were on the ground and hard to range. Obviously XFT with small kill zones will be a little different but will see.

 

[Franklink]

Better correct myself a bit here. I do remember at least one respectable slug score-i think it was Colorado Chris with a 22 or so.

From my slug testing I think my Vet Long (unchoked barrel) could do okay in an XFT match with the 20.2 NSAs but I don't think it could do better than I can with the MRDs from the same gun. The slugs are just so inconsistent and erratic that it makes it tough. And the fact that they screw up a barrel makes it frustrating too. Not screw up as in ruin, but gunk up the barrel to the point of needing to clean it aggressively enough that it necessitates pulling the barrel and then you lose zero and all your dope data, etc. Just shooting lubed pellets I can pull a patch through every so often and retain the accuracy. With slugs accuracy goes south fast as shot count goes up. And it's not an easy job to get it back.

 

[pesty3782]

Well I am no where near 100 FPE…just a mere 36 FPE, but I might surprise myself….or embarrass myself…Hell either way I always have a good time

Tony P

 

[thomasair]

Here is an interesting piece of info. While air gunners are trying to match speeds and power levels with Rimfire….the precision Rimfire ammo makers wish they could get consistent ignition at much slower speeds. They can’t do it….but it’s not due to a lack of trying. There is so little powder in the case that they cannot go lower without erratic ignition.

Mike

 

[Nofilters]

Hey Tony, Yes I could go back through and add slug info. It seemed like there were so few that it wasn't worth including. Some months no slug shooters, other months a slug shooter or two with seemingly equipment difficulties and scores in the single digits.

If you go back through the data the month I shot slugs . I think I shot 27 and that was highest at the time for slugs, and may still be.

 

[Franklink]

If you go back through the data the month I shot slugs . I think I shot 27 and that was highest at the time for slugs, and may still be.

If you shot a 27 then yes that would have been the highest cuz Colorado Chris's 22 or so was the highest I remember seeing when I went through the last reports.

Was that with your .25 or was it .177 slugs?

 

[Franklink]

Here is an interesting piece of info. While air gunners are trying to match speeds and power levels with Rimfire….the precision Rimfire ammo makers wish they could get consistent ignition at much slower speeds. They can’t do it….but it’s not due to a lack of trying. There is so little powder in the case that they cannot go lower without erratic ignition.

Mike

I've read or heard comments from guys excited at the prospect of the improvement in consistent fps from rimfire power level airguns over rimfire.

Rimfire wants the pros of airguns and airguns wants the pros of rimfire.

Grass is always greener I suppose.

 

[qball]

Here is an interesting piece of info. While air gunners are trying to match speeds and power levels with Rimfire….the precision Rimfire ammo makers wish they could get consistent ignition at much slower speeds. They can’t do it….but it’s not due to a lack of trying. There is so little powder in the case that they cannot go lower without erratic ignition.

Mike

I’ve been telling people to stay at March 0.8 or 890fps to be more precise but no one seems to listen.

In ballistic ideal world it’s either above March 1.2 or below March 0.8 but hey, what do ballistic experts know?

 

[Nofilters]

If you shot a 27 then yes that would have been the highest cuz Colorado Chris's 22 or so was the highest I remember seeing when I went through the last reports.

Was that with your .25 or was it .177 slugs?

.25

 

[Centercut]

If you shot a 27 then yes that would have been the highest cuz Colorado Chris's 22 or so was the highest I remember seeing when I went through the last reports.

Was that with your .25 or was it .177 slugs?

Yeah, I think there were other scores higher than 22, but @Nofilters has the slug high of 27/40. I also think when comparing accuracy and BC you need to delete the off hand lanes that have nothing to do with ammo and BC and are 100% shooter skill only. I kinda remember shooting a 25 with slugs on a different occasion but I could be wrong. There was also another match where high pellet and slugs scores tied, but it was 22 (Bobby C and me). I know in one of the practice rounds after a match I shot 33/36 with slugs not counting the off hand lane. That was with .22 JSB KOs at 990 fps with BC of 0.084.

 

[Ghostranger169]

Very interesting thread. Judging by the results of my(limited and specific to my guns at my range's conditions) target shooting, it seems like the consistently smaller groups at less than 100 yards in mild wind conditions were much easier achieved with pellets than with any of the slugs that I have tried.
For field target type shooting, I would guess, the more consistent precision relative to MOA at a given distance would favor using pellets at closer distances(until about 100 yards or so) in relatively mild wind.
Perhaps the time when slugs become more advantageous is if there is any significant wind and/or there is the possibilty of needing to consistently hit targets farther than 100 yards. In those instances, it seems, the precision relative to MOA at most distances would swing in favor of the slugs.

 

[Centercut]

Very interesting thread. Judging by the results of my(limited and specific to my guns at my range's conditions) target shooting, it seems like the consistently smaller groups at less than 100 yards in mild wind conditions were much easier achieved with pellets than with any of the slugs that I have tried.
For field target type shooting, I would guess, the more consistent precision relative to MOA at a given distance would favor using pellets at closer distances(until about 100 yards or so) in relatively mild wind.
Perhaps the time when slugs become more advantageous is if there is any significant wind and/or there is the possibilty of needing to consistently hit targets farther than 100 yards. In those instances, it seems, the precision relative to MOA at most distances would swing in favor of the slugs.

I’m not so sure that slugs aren’t just as accurate at 50, 75, or 100 yards as pellets. It does take a lot of work to get them up to that level of performance, but my best scores at 100Y BR and at EFT have been with slugs. Granted, these were practice cards or rounds, but it still means something. If you’d have asked me a year ago I would have agreed with you that pellets are more accurate than slugs out to 100 yards. Not so much anymore.

 

[steve123]

This airgun stuff makes me want to pull my hair out sometimes, lol!

I've experienced what Mike N referred to with his vertical POI shifts. There's no way for me to predict it. On Wednesday I shot a tiny 5 shot group at 50Y right off the bat including the first shot, around 30 caliber from edge to edge. This was with my Thomas HPX using 42gr slugs. I went straight to the 125Y T-rex and was .6 mil low but last week I was dead on??? Then I hardly hit the longer steel targets from 190Y to 300Y??? It was getting windy though. Last week I hardly missed the 200Y steel??!! Why oh why??? It's been like this... one day its amazing, the next time not so much. Arrrg.

A few times I've equaled my nice Anschutz 22rf with my HPX at long range but more often than not the 22rf will come out ahead at the longer distances. On Wednesday my 22rf was far superior at the longer distances, especially at 300Y even in the wind when I hardly missed the steel bobcat.

My AGT King 25cal also has POI shifts, and its not as precise as the HPX, on top of that the BC of the 29gr slugs only comes out to .072 in my rifle, all reasons why I haven't tried it in XFT.

I should try the 20.2gr 22 cal slugs in my Redwolf for the heck of it.

Pretty much decided that spending $100 including travel and entry fees to shoot XFT that its not worth it to me to shoot pellets or slugs there so 22RF is where its at for me right now and probably from now on.

 

[Franklink]

The next time I'm stuck in front of a computer I'll compile some slug info from matches. My memory (perhaps incorrect) was that we had more slugs shooters come out the first year and they dwindled away to not many since this past October. Decent slug scores have been few and far between, again by memory, but compiled data from the match reports will tell the actual story. As a side note- to get a decent sample size of slug scores I'm pretty sure I'll have to include the first year of XFT matches.

As for throwing out the offhands, I see the rational for arguing that shooter skill (or lack thereof) at offhand skews the data. But the flip side of that argument is also......shooter skill. Somebody has to shoot that gun or slug or pellet or rimfire, whether it's from a bipod or offhand. Which then gets us into the controversial subject that I've broached before: is it the arrow or the Indian? (Gear versus shooter's ability, or, can wins be bought by ponying up for better equipment).

So, since somebody is operating that trigger, tallying up the numbers won't definitively prove one way or the other if slugs or pellets are better, but it is DANG interesting. Especially given the pro-slug climate of the airgun industry of late.