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XFT Phoenix, Slugs vs Rimfire vs Pellet scores

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Franklink said:
The next time I'm stuck in front of a computer I'll compile some slug info from matches. My memory (perhaps incorrect) was that we had more slugs shooters come out the first year and they dwindled away to not many since this past October. Decent slug scores have been few and far between, again by memory, but compiled data from the match reports will tell the actual story. As a side note- to get a decent sample size of slug scores I'm pretty sure I'll have to include the first year of XFT matches.

As for throwing out the offhands, I see the rational for arguing that shooter skill (or lack thereof) at offhand skews the data. But the flip side of that argument is also......shooter skill. Somebody has to shoot that gun or slug or pellet or rimfire, whether it's from a bipod or offhand. Which then gets us into the controversial subject that I've broached before: is it the arrow or the Indian? (Gear versus shooter's ability, or, can wins be bought by ponying up for better equipment).

So, since somebody is operating that trigger, tallying up the numbers won't definitively prove one way or the other if slugs or pellets are better, but it is DANG interesting. Especially given the pro-slug climate of the airgun industry of late.
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Yeah, I think since it’s been almost two years, and slugs haven’t been shown to dominate like some thought would happen, the smart thing would be to have only two classes, pellet/slug and rimfire. I think this would encourage more slug shooters to at least try to shoot the course against the pellets. Let’s face it, who wants to come out and shoot slugs and be 1 of 2 or 3? Prize money has also been more significant for pellets. To encourage this type of P vs S competition you’re looking for put them in the same class. See what happens…
 
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Centercut said:
Yeah, I think since it’s been almost two years, and slugs haven’t been shown to dominate like some thought would happen, the smart thing would be to have only two classes, pellet/slug and rimfire. I think this would encourage more slug shooters to at least try to shoot the course against the pellets. Let’s face it, who wants to come out and shoot slugs and be 1 of 2 or 3? Prize money has also been more significant for pellets. To encourage this type of P vs S competition you’re looking for put them in the same class. See what happens…
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I think giving a division for slugs to compete in is more than enough. To think people would accept the two competing in the same division is a stretch IMO. I think data is more apt to change over the next year or two because airgun slugs are still evolving. The pellet evolution has come and gone for now. Besides, I think Phoenix Rod and Gun is the only place this happens for now. I am trying to put together many different disciplines there. I want to have slug, pellet, and rimfire side by side in 25, N50, 75, and 100 and of course Extreme Field Target. We also have a hi-power range so there is no limit to what can be done. So if anyone wants to help or has input I will listen and appreciate the input. "Let's grow this"
 
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Nofilters said:
I think giving a division for slugs to compete in is more than enough. To think people would accept the two competing in the same division is a stretch IMO. I think data is more apt to change over the next year or two because airgun slugs are still evolving. The pellet evolution has come and gone for now. Besides, I think Phoenix Rod and Gun is the only place this happens for now. I am trying to put together many different disciplines there. I want to have slug, pellet, and rimfire side by side in 25, N50, 75, and 100 and of course Extreme Field Target. We also have a hi-power range so there is no limit to what can be done. So if anyone wants to help or has input I will listen and appreciate the input. "Let's grow this"
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Gotcha. So what I’m hearing is that despite pellets routinely beating slugs at XFT, no one would be willing to put their belief to the test and deep inside feel that slugs are better in XFT despite a two year history to the contrary? Ok, I get it. Was just throwing it out there to try and get more shooting slugs. As long as there is more money on pellets plus pellets being EFT GP, slugs will take a back seat. And that’s ok. I don’t have a problem with that. Looks like some shooters in the GP series will be shooting all FOUR events this year.
 
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I acknowledge there are limitations to using XFT results to generally compare slugs to pellets, for all the reasons that have been stated in the preceding discussion.

Notwithstanding the limitations, XFT might be about the best comparison we are going to see. It has kill zones up to 3 inches, out to 100 yards where guys are shooting at the same targets in the relatively same conditions (within the same few hour window at least) with slugs or pellets (or rimfire). The structure of the competition does not allow for the spray and pray method for guys to be able to see where 15 sighters went to then take one shot that "counts." That also makes XFT results a test of day to day consistency (and even minute to minute) in impact points from not only the gun, but the projectile itself.

Centercut said:
....no one would be willing to put their belief to the test and deep inside feel that slugs are better in XFT despite a two year history to the contrary? Ok, I get it. Was just throwing it out there to try and get more shooting slugs. As long as there is more money on pellets plus pellets being EFT GP, slugs will take a back seat....
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If I saw ANY improvement in ballistics or accuracy from the slugs that I have tested (again, less than 45fpe and less than 100 yards) I would shoot them in XFT instead of pellets. I feel like I've put the industry claims to the test, at least at the relatively modest power levels. I've got a graveyard shelf of slugs in my gun room representing not an insignificant amount ($$$) of testing with slugs in comparison to high BC pellets. None have shot better, so I'll continue to shoot high bc pellets. I am rooting for somebody to show up to XFT and just obliterate the pellets with slugs. I'd love to see that advancement in accuracy potential and wind bucking and all the other pros that slugs have on paper. I'd jump on that band wagon so fast and even extend slug use to a few of my pdog shooting towns where it would be safe to do so. (With heavy shooting pressure, they figure out how far is "safe." It would be AWESOME to show up with slugs and smack all those confident ones that think they're at a safe distance). BUT, the fact that even the rimfire shooters aren't getting substantially higher scores than high bc pellets doesn't bode well for slug shooters.

And yes, the trend that high BC pellets have done better than slugs and almost as well as the rimfires might be nothing more than a further testament to how much shooter skill it takes to shoot at long range. And I mean that by "rubber meets the road", actual shooting situations where you get one shot (pun intended) to make it count, not cherry picked groups shared here on AGN, or an entire tin of pellets shot downrange at paper for sighters with only 25 of those shots "counting."
 
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Franklink said:
I acknowledge there are limitations to using XFT results to generally compare slugs to pellets, for all the reasons that have been stated in the preceding discussion.

Notwithstanding the limitations, XFT might be about the best comparison we are going to see. It has kill zones up to 3 inches, out to 100 yards where guys are shooting at the same targets in the relatively same conditions (within the same few hour window at least) with slugs or pellets (or rimfire). The structure of the competition does not allow for the spray and pray method for guys to be able to see where 15 sighters went to then take one shot that "counts." That also makes XFT results a test of day to day consistency (and even minute to minute) in impact points from not only the gun, but the projectile itself.


If I saw ANY improvement in ballistics or accuracy from the slugs that I have tested (again, less than 45fpe and less than 100 yards) I would shoot them in XFT instead of pellets. I feel like I've put the industry claims to the test, at least at the relatively modest power levels. I've got a graveyard shelf of slugs in my gun room representing not an insignificant amount ($$$) of testing with slugs in comparison to high BC pellets. None have shot better, so I'll continue to shoot high bc pellets. I am rooting for somebody to show up to XFT and just obliterate the pellets with slugs. I'd love to see that advancement in accuracy potential and wind bucking and all the other pros that slugs have on paper. I'd jump on that band wagon so fast and even extend slug use to a few of my pdog shooting towns where it would be safe to do so. (With heavy shooting pressure, they figure out how far is "safe." It would be AWESOME to show up with slugs and smack all those confident ones that think they're at a safe distance). BUT, the fact that even the rimfire shooters aren't getting substantially higher scores than high bc pellets doesn't bode well for slug shooters.

And yes, the trend that high BC pellets have done better than slugs and almost as well as the rimfires might be nothing more than a further testament to how much shooter skill it takes to shoot at long range. And I mean that by "rubber meets the road", actual shooting situations where you get one shot (pun intended) to make it count, not cherry picked groups shared here on AGN, or an entire tin of pellets shot downrange at paper for sighters with only 25 of those shots "counting."
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Two things I think missed my point.
1. No one is shooting slugs in competition at 100Y BR
and
2. No one at XFT is shooting the newer state of the art slug guns like they do at PRS or NRL-22. That state of the art is currently 40 grain slugs with BC of approx 0.130 to 0.140 at 1000 to 1050 fps.
I too would love to see a talented shooter like any of the top ten at RMAC PRS come and shoot one of our matches at XFT. I don’t think the results would be any better than the two that routinely shoot high end rimfire at XFT but I do bet they’d beat the top pellet shooters. 😉
 
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Had to check but yep, 40grain @ 1050 would be JUST under the legal limit. I too would be (am) very interested to see how they do and how it compares to rimfire and pellet.

The high scores from rimfire aren't haven't even been a full 4% better than high scores from high BC pellets (3.7% to be exact). See that table I shared in the first post, but I think I know what you mean ;). The similarity in high scores were a surprise to me, I expected the rimfires to be much better than the pellets, which is really why I started this thread. If rimfires can't drastically outpace the high bc pellets, how can slugs, was kinda my point, since rimfires are still kickin A and taking names in PRS and NRL22 compared to airguns, at least as far as I know.

Also, it hasn't been pointed out, but just for clarification for those unaware, the rimfire shooters have to be shooting sub sonic rounds to be legal in XFT. Are the rimfires in PRS and NRL22 also sub sonic? B/c if so, then the state of the art 40 grain slugs @ 1000-1050 are VERY VERY VERY similar in external ballistics to the rimfires mentioned throughout this discussion.
 
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Franklink said:
Had to check but yep, 40grain @ 1050 would be JUST under the legal limit. I too would be (am) very interested to see how they do and how it compares to rimfire and pellet.

The high scores from rimfire aren't haven't even been a full 4% better than high scores from high BC pellets (3.7% to be exact). See that table I shared in the first post, but I think I know what you mean ;). The similarity in high scores were a surprise to me, I expected the rimfires to be much better than the pellets, which is really why I started this thread. If rimfires can't drastically outpace the high bc pellets, how can slugs, was kinda my point, since rimfires are still kickin A and taking names in PRS and NRL22 compared to airguns, at least as far as I know.

Also, it hasn't been pointed out, but just for clarification for those unaware, the rimfire shooters have to be shooting sub sonic rounds to be legal in XFT. Are the rimfires in PRS and NRL22 also sub sonic? B/c if so, then the state of the art 40 grain slugs @ 1000-1050 are VERY VERY VERY similar in external ballistics to the rimfires mentioned throughout this discussion.
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Yes, subsonic. And yes, as good as state of the art airguns with slugs are, the top Airgun Slugger at the NRL-22 Nationals was about 150 out of 200 total shooters. If you’ve shot Rimfire next to a high powered Airgun Slugger you’d see just how much harder it is to shoot an Airgun compared to a Rimfire of the same power. Mike S’s Vudoo was SO MUCH easier to shoot at one of our XFT events last year it wasn’t even fair…Lock time is an order of magnitude longer with an Airgun compared to a Rimfire…
 
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If you shot better with Rimfire, it wasn’t because of the lock time. Once you add lock time to the 250 ms it takes your brain to get your finger to pull the trigger….it’s insignificant. The USFT is about the longest lock time of any regular FT gun. Guys shoot them well all the time despite other guns being 3x faster. 265 ms compared to 250 isn’t much.

In pseudo science analysis…the most obvious differences always get the top credit for whatever performance difference there is. Simply throwing a 40gr slug ar 1050 isn’t going to bring Airguns up to good Rimfire accuracy. It may bring them up to 500$ Rimfire with poorly matched ammo, though. When slug guns can match top Rimfire or pellets in accuracy at 50y….they will be in a position to outshoot them at eft.

N50 has a lot more data….and nobody has come close to pellets or Rimfire with commercial slugs.

Mike
 
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The trouble with heavy slugs is that the vertical poi is very difficult to manage precisely over time. That’s not something you can see very well in a 5 shot group. Target to target it moves depending on the barrel friction at the time. It has less to do with velocity difference….but pulse difference in the vibration pattern.

I see Matt has a muzzle brake on that gun. He would not be welcome to shoot alongside todays air gunners that value quiet over accuracy. 😀.

Mike
 
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steve123 said:
Maybe one of you guys can talk the Utah club into having a slug division for EFT in the August match to see how well those 90-ish fpe sluggers do???
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That's a great idea, but it would have to be a separate round since the prize money and GP points are pellet only. Having seen the top shooters at the RMAC PRS event, like Boyd Linder, Matt Dubber, Justin Welch, and Keith Gibson, my guess (and its only a guess) would be that slug shooters with skills like that would dominate the pellet shooters at EFT unless we had a very calm day...
FYI, we do have "blockers" traveling a considerable distance to this Utah EFT GP event... Any points earned there will be very well deserved.!
 
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