Yong Heng, Radiator vs Ice, my results so far (Video added)

[JimD]

"Or to put it simply, relative humidity indicates the actual water content of air as a percentage of the maximum amount it could possibly hold. The term absolute humidity is less common: it describes the actual amount of water vapour in the air in g/m3. This also depends on the temperature of the air"

-Matt

Matt,

I don't think we are as far apart as you may. The only thing I disagree with in this comment is where you say the absolute humidity measured in grams per cubic meter depends on temperature. I am sure it does not. Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote.

While the linked articles use relative humidity at times they mainly point out that getting water inside the compressor is going to be a bad thing. I think we both know that and vent the YH to address it.

I also think your method of keeping the YH cool is a good way to do it.

Jim

 

[Dog]

I have been reading this and was wondering if a long fill tube and made a coil out of say 3-4 feet of the line and placed in the bucket to help make sure that the actual water is already cooled? I have not used one of these, but I am just curious for when/if I may have to try a water cooled model?

I, like many, use frozen water bottles. I give the ice enough time to chill my 4 gallons of distilled water before pump put to hard use. You can simply feel incoming line fitting to outflow..or hell, throw temp probes if numbers makes your day. In the end I keep head temp no higher than 60C, others like 55C for short runs. That and a $10 dollar window box fan that assists motor fan and blows across front fins and very hot SS tubing. Not perfect but WAY cheaper than the Italian spread... I do love Lamborghinis!

 

[Nighthawk320]

Looking into a YH. Thanks for info.

 

[Stubbers]

While the linked articles use relative humidity at times they mainly point out that getting water inside the compressor is going to be a bad thing. I think we both know that and vent the YH to address it.


Jim

The articles also mention how lower RH increases the efficiency of the compressor because there is more air molecules put unit of volume, meaning your compressor is breathing in more air, opposed to water mixed with air....thus not only will there will be less water to vent, there will be more air being compressed over the same period of time...

I don't think we are as far apart as you may. The only thing I disagree with in this comment is where you say the absolute humidity measured in grams per cubic meter depends on temperature. I am sure it does not. Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote.

That statement was literally grabbed from here...
https://www.motan-group.com/en/mos-...il/14-what-is-relative-and-absolute-humidity/


My whole statement was referring to RH, and yes, RH depends on temperature, which is why I wait till later in the day, which is where this ENTIRE argument began, so lets not run circles...need a visualization? Here ya go...now please, do your own research...and stop claiming I brought up absolute humidity, that was you...

-Matt

 

[JimD]

Matt,

You are much more talented in putting together supporting information than I am and I am sure you also understand many airgun topics better than I do. It seems that this has turned into a pissing contest which benefits nobody. But I will reply one more time. I only made a comment on this to help you understand you do not need to wait to run your Yong Heng. If you want to continue to wait for lower relative humidity it is OK with me (and you, of course, do not need my permission anyway).

I do not know who "Mo" is but the National Weather Service says: "Absolute humidity (expressed as grams of water vapor per cubic meter volume of air) is a measure of the actual amount of water vapor (moisture) in the air, regardless of the air's temperature. The higher the amount of water vapor, the higher the absolute humidity." I found this by googling "does absolute humidity increase with temperature". Another statement they make is "Absolute humidity is not dependent on temperature". As you know, the units are grams per cubic meter. There is no mention of temperature. I am only referencing the National Weather Service because they are the first source that came up on my google search. I also looked at Wikipedia and they are consistent but they do bring up the fact that if temperature varies widely it has an effect. They are talking about chemical process where pressure is also changing and thus different conditions than we see in the atmosphere. They also state in other places that absolute humidity is temperature independent.

You apparently believe that the amount of air per unit volume increases with lower relative humidity. The Wikipedia article has an interesting portion discussing whether moisture displaces air. They state that the amount of moisture that can enter a given volume is almost independent of the amount of air present in that volume. I think this means that the YH injests the same amount of air regardless of how much water is in the air.

The Yong Heng information is better than we get from a lot of Chinese suppliers but still somewhat confusing switching between relative and absolute humidity. I accept that you can read it as supporting your view but I can just as easily read it as supporting mine. It is just not definitive on these topics in my opinion.

Jim

 

[Stubbers]

Matt,

You are much more talented in putting together supporting information than I am and I am sure you also understand many airgun topics better than I do. It seems that this has turned into a pissing contest which benefits nobody. But I will reply one more time. I only made a comment on this to help you understand you do not need to wait to run your Yong Heng. If you want to continue to wait for lower relative humidity it is OK with me (and you, of course, do not need my permission anyway).

I do not know who "Mo" is but the National Weather Service says: "Absolute humidity (expressed as grams of water vapor per cubic meter volume of air) is a measure of the actual amount of water vapor (moisture) in the air, regardless of the air's temperature. The higher the amount of water vapor, the higher the absolute humidity." I found this by googling "does absolute humidity increase with temperature". Another statement they make is "Absolute humidity is not dependent on temperature". As you know, the units are grams per cubic meter. There is no mention of temperature. I am only referencing the National Weather Service because they are the first source that came up on my google search. I also looked at Wikipedia and they are consistent but they do bring up the fact that if temperature varies widely it has an effect. They are talking about chemical process where pressure is also changing and thus different conditions than we see in the atmosphere. They also state in other places that absolute humidity is temperature independent.

You apparently believe that the amount of air per unit volume increases with lower relative humidity. The Wikipedia article has an interesting portion discussing whether moisture displaces air. They state that the amount of moisture that can enter a given volume is almost independent of the amount of air present in that volume. I think this means that the YH injests the same amount of air regardless of how much water is in the air.

The Yong Heng information is better than we get from a lot of Chinese suppliers but still somewhat confusing switching between relative and absolute humidity. I accept that you can read it as supporting your view but I can just as easily read it as supporting mine. It is just not definitive on these topics in my opinion.

Jim

I am not discussing absolute humidity, that is all you, you're on your own there. I never said temperature changes absolute humidity, because I don't care about absolute humidity, I only linked the definition describing the difference between the two, and one of the differences is temperature effects relative humidity...period. Ending the statement that 'temperature effects this' was not directed towards absolute humidity, it clearly effects relative humidity....so don't take something out of context to appeal to your confirmation bias.

The articles I linked and all of my statements have been about relative humidity, which I have proven thoroughly greatly impacts compressors. You keep running circles around and around and I am not going to play cat and mouse with you.

You can think what you want, but you have made no clear arguments, only thoughts and hypotheticals while I have given you citations, actual citations proving that relative humidity does effect compressors...either you didn't read them carefully enough, or are unable to grasp the premise, even with pictures, like a picture book...but yet here we are....and I am done trying to explain a very simple concept to you.

Another picture from the above linked article. DO NOT TAKE 'this depends on temperature' out of context, as it applies to RH, not AH

Good day,

-Matt

 

[Stubbers]

Lets just make this very simple Jim...

You state it makes no difference WHATSOEVER if you run your compressor at 100% relative humidity vs 0% relative humidity.

I disagree.

The end.

-Matt

 

[Firewalker]

I don't use ice or chilled water with my Yong Heng, it does fine with room temp water.

 

[Dog]

I don't use ice or chilled water with my Yong Heng, it does fine with room temp water.

What, you just dump return water, many do. Cotton's video shows untreated water build-up. My 4 distilled gallons ($4) plus $9 RedLine would be 60C in no time as all sits 31-32C in southern garage. That mix is now over three years old in covered 5 gallon bucket. I would then vote for a radiator if not ice, or using large drum of water. Curious, what is your max target head temp using room temp water? Cheers

 

[Firewalker]

What, you just dump return water, many do. Cotton's video shows untreated water build-up. My 4 distilled gallons ($4) plus $9 RedLine would be 60C in no time as all sits 31-32C in southern garage. That mix is now over three years old in covered 5 gallon bucket. I would then vote for a radiator if not ice, or using large drum of water. Curious, what is your max target head temp using room temp water? Cheers

Nope, I have an old 20 gallon cooler with water and some treatment and it's a closed loop.

Reality is that ice water will not cool the compressor any more than room temp water will.

The Delta-T is about 10°F.

 

[karl_h]

I plan my fills, during the time of day where humidity is at its lowest, another key factor in preparation some may not consider. Morning = bad, afternoon/evening when its the hottest = best (for low humidity conditions). This morning was probably 30% humidity, right now its 25%, and in a few hours it'll be 19-20%. I am fortunate to live in a very arid climate, at least from the airgunners perspective.



-Matt

Relative humidity is pointless, it has no meaning. It is relative to the temp. Dewpoint is what you should look at. In areas of the country where it is hot and humid, this is a very common situation. In the morning, low temp hits 68 degrees F, humidity = 100%, so the dewpoint is obviously 68 degrees F, which equates to 17.2842 g/m3 of water in every cubic meter of air. Now later in the afternoon, it hits 90 degrees F, humidity is only 60 percent, guess what the dewpoint is.... The dewpoint is now 72.4 degrees F, and the amount of water in every cubic meter of air is now 20.5115 g/m3. Much lower humidity with just over 18% more water in every cubic meter of air.

Humidity is relative and pointless, need to calculate dewpoint to find what amount of water is in the air. Dewpoint tells you how much water is in a given volume of air without bothering with calculating down to the grams/cubic meter.

 

[Stubbers]

Relative humidity is pointless, it has no meaning. It is relative to the temp. Dewpoint is what you should look at. In areas of the country where it is hot and humid, this is a very common situation. In the morning, low temp hits 68 degrees F, humidity = 100%, so the dewpoint is obviously 68 degrees F, which equates to 17.2842 g/m3 of water in every cubic meter of air. Now later in the afternoon, it hits 90 degrees F, humidity is only 60 percent, guess what the dewpoint is.... The dewpoint is now 72.4 degrees F, and the amount of water in every cubic meter of air is now 20.5115 g/m3. Much lower humidity with just over 18% more water in every cubic meter of air.

Humidity is relative and pointless, need to calculate dewpoint to find what amount of water is in the air. Dewpoint tells you how much water is in a given volume of air without bothering with calculating down to the grams/cubic meter.

I already cited 2 articles stating otherwise...if relative humidity was pointless, then these pictures would be pointless...

You do you boo. Go run your compressors in 100% RH, I'll run mine as close to 0% as I can.

And another, as you see, RH and Dew point is lowest in the afternoon....as I said when I prefer to fill, opposed to mornings...or evenings...

-Matt

 

[karl_h]

@Stubbers, look up the science, plenty out there. The amount of water per given volume of air is what means something, that is a direct relation to dewpoint, and a lot of calcs from relative humidity. Now, if you are in a dry environment, it may well be vanishingly close to pointless, but if you are in a humid environment in matters a lot.

 

[Stubbers]

@Stubbers, look up the science, plenty out there. The amount of water per given volume of air is what means something, that is a direct relation to dewpoint, and a lot of calcs from relative humidity. Now, if you are in a dry environment, it may well be vanishingly close to pointless, but if you are in a humid environment in matters a lot.

Look at this pics, its science. The water escaping my vent/water trap being reduced to next to nothing with my recent methods opposed to filling in the AM or late PM speaks for itself. I don't need to convince you, however, good luck convincing what my eyes see upon releasing the water trap vent otherwise.

-Matt

 

[Stubbers]

Just filled my tank, 15 minute run time, temperature peaked at 45.6C with my pre-chilled water, and venting at the 7 minute mark and 15 minute mark yielded less than 1ml water escaping the 'water-trap'. No added fans, no added radiator, stock yh pump.

Science!

-Matt

 

[JimD]

I am confident that colder cooling water will reduce the second stage temperature of a Yong Heng. Heat transfer is always a function of the temperature difference. Colder water means the temperature difference with the head is greater so heat will flow faster.

I am not prechilling the water but when I put in a couple frozen soda bottles of ice in the water my YH's peak temperature decreases. Same principle. Colder cooling water means more heat transfer in a given amount of time. I only use the ice in the summer when the ambient temperature is higher here. Most of the year the radiator and fans are enough to keep me below 60 C, my somewhat arbitrary limit. I also find the ice works better if I add it at the start of the run instead of during the run when the temperature is already starting to get high. Bigger temperature difference for longer.

I think colder cooling water and radiators are both proven effective ways to reduce the peak head temperature of our YHs. I find a radiator more convenient but I use ice sometimes too. A larger volume of cooling water would be beneficial too since it would take longer for it to heat up so the difference would stay larger longer. Many ways to do this.

Purely for convenience I may go to a really low volume of cooling water. I already only have about 2 gallons. My YH heats up to around 50 C in the first 5 minutes and then rises much more slowly after that. Seems like an exponential curve. By the time it gets up around 60 degrees it is rising very slowly. I seem to be getting close to equilibrium. I may add a second radiator first which I think will reduce the peak temperature. If that works as I think it will then I would use a much smaller cooling water container like a 1 gallon. Enough to cover the pump but no real attempt to reduce the rate of temperature rise, just the peak temperature. Only benefit of the small water volume is just the reduced footprint. The Target Forge guy did something like this with an aluminum 2 gallon container and put everything in a metal cage so it is all contained. I like that sort of arrangement but may just leave it as separate pieces.

 

[Stubbers]

If you run drain to waste and hook up direct from a faucet/hose, you have the least footprint possible in terms of coolant volume, however the footprint of a 3 or 5 gallon bucket is not a concern to most yong heng users...

If the footprint of your coolant is a concern, then I would strongly advise a pre-chilled water volume even more, as the only reason to run larger volume containers is due to the heater transfer saturating the given water volume which reduces the efficiency of your coolant.

Adding in radiators with a lot of 90 degree turns only decreases the efficiency of the stock water pumps flow. If you're unwilling to apply forethought and pre-chill your coolant prior to use and would rather opt to spend a bunch of money for lesser performance, I sure as heck am not going to impede you.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and my yong hengs ability to stay really cool during operation isn't broke, so I am not looking for fixes.

-Matt

 

[Firewalker]

I am confident that colder cooling water will reduce the second stage temperature of a Yong Heng. Heat transfer is always a function of the temperature difference. Colder water means the temperature difference with the head is greater so heat will flow faster.

I am not prechilling the water but when I put in a couple frozen soda bottles of ice in the water my YH's peak temperature decreases. Same principle. Colder cooling water means more heat transfer in a given amount of time. I only use the ice in the summer when the ambient temperature is higher here. Most of the year the radiator and fans are enough to keep me below 60 C, my somewhat arbitrary limit. I also find the ice works better if I add it at the start of the run instead of during the run when the temperature is already starting to get high. Bigger temperature difference for longer.

I think colder cooling water and radiators are both proven effective ways to reduce the peak head temperature of our YHs. I find a radiator more convenient but I use ice sometimes too. A larger volume of cooling water would be beneficial too since it would take longer for it to heat up so the difference would stay larger longer. Many ways to do this.

Purely for convenience I may go to a really low volume of cooling water. I already only have about 2 gallons. My YH heats up to around 50 C in the first 5 minutes and then rises much more slowly after that. Seems like an exponential curve. By the time it gets up around 60 degrees it is rising very slowly. I seem to be getting close to equilibrium. I may add a second radiator first which I think will reduce the peak temperature. If that works as I think it will then I would use a much smaller cooling water container like a 1 gallon. Enough to cover the pump but no real attempt to reduce the rate of temperature rise, just the peak temperature. Only benefit of the small water volume is just the reduced footprint. The Target Forge guy did something like this with an aluminum 2 gallon container and put everything in a metal cage so it is all contained. I like that sort of arrangement but may just leave it as separate pieces.

I'll bow out of this conversation after this reply but the heat exchange is limited and the only way to measure it is a thermocouple in the chilling water and a second thermocouple in the return water.

Since everybody insisted on ice with the chilling water I played along and measured the chill water (40°F) and the return water (51°F).

As time went on, the Delta-T remained at 11° for the entire fill.

My current setup also results in an 11°F Delta-T.

 

[JimD]

That constant temperature drop with a radiator is the key advantage in my mind. It keeps doing it on a bigger tank or on one that is completely empty. Chilled water can initially be more effective in keeping temperature down but the benefit will gradually reduce because the water will be continuously be getting warmer. The other benefits are the lack of set up time and waiting for the water to cool.

 

[Dog]

..but the chilled water allows me to work longer with just 4 gallons, not a drum of water..depending on what your max temp limits will be. I can also better control any corrosion build up in my little mind. My last posted pics show zero build up over 4 plus years. But yeah, would love to see water head with bigger surface area...