You’ve all heard of minute of 🩌 deer, How about minute of Can as a new standard?

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Flintsack

Flintsack

Member
Aug 19, 2019
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Minnesota, United States
Minute of deer is defined as the distance I can hit a deer in the vitals with consistently. Most guns/shooters are realistically limited to around 300 yards. Good shooters who practice a lot can stretch it to 400 with good equipment. Most of the hunters I’ve seen heading out to the woods shouldn’t go past 200 to 250 ever. The guys on this website probably fit in the 400 yard category, or in many cases even more.

so with an air rifle at long range, what the heck is consistency? What does it mean. What’s consistent at 250? What is consistent shooting at 150? 
Or God forbid the dreaded 300!

In my opinion we can shoot consistently at these distances. However we need to define consistently.

If my target is a tin can. If I barely hit it, I don’t wound it, it still blows up. That’s good, no grey area.

Can I hit it consistently? Can I hit it at least three out of five times with confidence? Maybe once in a while four out of five, or even 5 of 5 on a good day
.

that feels like consistency to me. But wait a minute, I can see the hands raising across the globe right now to object
 The tin can will be much harder to hit at 250 Compared to 150.

Will it? What if I was using a 15 ft pnd 177 at 150, And a 100 foot pound 25 caliber Benchrest Rifle at 250? I would think it might be easier to hit at 250 in that case. So what’s my point
?

Sure, but if you had a 25 red Wolf đŸș at both 150 and 250, the same rifle. Same slugs, (this is not a pellet conversation). You’re going to hit the 150 more often and much easier, we all agree.

So again, what’s my point?

We all know what someone means when you say minute of deer. It means that you could consistently expect to hit the vitals of a deer at that distance.

So the definition of minute of Can is , you could expect to hit a can, with that Rifle, at that distance under reasonable conditions.

I feel very confident that my 22 red wolf is minute of Can at 200 yards in most conditions. That means if it’s crazy switch winds etc. it’s not going to happen. Exactly the same as if you’re trying to shoot a deer at 400 yards, you need a consistent wind blowing in one direction, and you need to be able to measure it.

If it’s a continuous 8 mile an hour wind blowing from left to right, I think I could do better than three out of five most times with the 22 red Wolf đŸș at 200. I might have to hold a foot off the target every time, or even further. But once I figure out that hold, I can do it again and again.

Minute of can consistency. Is not a one shot deal. After all we are using air rifles.

The funny thing is, as I said above on minute of deer rifle, it is not capable of making the shot in all conditions. It is not a minute of deer rifle at 400 yards in switch winds blowing from 10 to 20 mph. Nothing is.

So minute of can accuracy is the ability to shoot at least three cans out of 5 consistently, in reasonable conditions. Which can be defined as a fairly consistent wind of less than 15 mph. Even with a 20 mph wind, with the right rifle, at 150 yards, shooting slugs of course, I think I could still hit the tin can more often than not. This is not about pellets. This is about aerodynamic slugs 🐌

I want to explore this long distance phenomenon and watch others also. If we all believe it can’t be done, no one will try.

I think we can amaze ourselves out past 200 yards with these new rifles.

I’m going to start using the term “minute of can”. This is simply to calibrate the claim.

If I’m lucky enough to shoot a minute of angle group out past 200 I will post it that way. But that has nothing to do with whether the rifle is capable of shooting minute of can


Minute of Can accuracy is about the same as the accuracy you need to hit a prairie dog. In normal South Dakota Prairie conditions, where it is never calm, A 223 is minute of Can out to 300 yards. A 22 250 in reasonable conditions you could stretch out past 400. My only point here, is that a very accurate 22 250, will outshoot a very accurate 223. Just more calibration. It has potential minute of Can accuracy at longer distances
.These are field distances, field shooting. (yes, I am aware of that fast twist 223 has done very well at very long distance Target shooting).

What I’m thinking, is a rifle minute of Can, I’m shooting it from the best possible position, which means a Benchrest.

thoughts? (putting on the flak jacket and iron helmet)

mike
 
"If it’s a continuous 8 mile an hour wind blowing from left to right, I think I could do better than three out of five most times with the 22 red Wolf đŸș at 200. I might have to hold a foot off the target every time, or even further. But once I figure out that hold, I can do it again and again."

This is why we won't agree. Few winds are consistent across any distance and once you "figure it out" it will probably change. I'll never say you can't do it at some times under certain conditions but to me "I can do it" and "consistently" means you walk out at any time and hit the can with most shots.

Obviously we view the situation differently.
 
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Depending on the deer size the vital shot size is 6-8 inches. Minute of deer to my understanding is the ability to aim dead center of the vital zone without any compensation for distance drop or wind, this is also call maximum point plank range in essence it take out any skill variable on the shooter to make an ethical shot as long as the aim is dead center. In PB world depending on the deer cartridge most rifles from 240-308 has max dead point blank range of 250-300 yards. With an airgun’s much slower projectile speed the minute of anything is rather close, we are talking about 800-1000fps vs 2600-3600 FPS. once the Max point blank range is established for a given ammo and speed then it can be stretched out with shooter’s skills. 


Example: my back yard max point blank range is 20-35 yards if I shoot hades @680-700FPS. I don’t have to make any correction and it shoots within 1/2 inch or to me that’s my “minute of squirrel”
..as long as the wind is below 5mph. 


So to OP’s point minute of anything varies greatly between setup/person combo to setup/person combo. If @flintsack handed me his RW at his range I most likely can’t print the group he can right before me in same exact condition. 



 
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Depending on the deer size the vital shot size is 6-8 inches. Minute of deer to my understanding is the ability to aim dead center of the vital zone without any compensation for distance drop or wind, this is also call maximum point plank range in essence it take out any skill variable on the shooter to make an ethical shot as long as the aim is dead center. In PB world depending on the deer cartridge most rifles from 240-308 has max dead point blank range of 250-300 yards. With an airgun’s much slower projectile speed the minute of anything is rather close, we are talking about 800-1000fps vs 2600-3600 FPS. once the Max point blank range is established for a given ammo and speed then it can be stretched out with shooter’s skills. 


Example: my back yard max point blank range is 20-35 yards if I shoot hades @680-700FPS. I don’t have to make any correction and it shoots within 1/2 inch or to me that’s my “minute of squirrel”
..as long as the wind is below 5mph. 


So to OP’s point minute of anything varies greatly between setup/person combo to setup/person combo. If @flintsack handed me his RW at his range I most likely can’t print the group he can right before me in same exact condition. 


Click to expand...

I understand it differently. "minute of deer" as used here (able to hit a given sized target at any specific distance) doesn't seem at all related to MPBR.
 
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This is why we won't agree. Few winds are consistent across any distance and once you "figure it out" it will probably change. I'll never say you can't do it at some times under certain conditions but to me "I can do it" and "consistently" means you walk out at any time and hit the can with most shots.

we totally agree. I would need some time to warm up in the condition. I would need wind flags. I would probably want to take an occasional sighter. 


as far as the example I use with the 8 mile an hour wind, please don’t apply too much to that piece, that’s just a data point. We both understand that the wind will change does change etc. So I probably should’ve said something like, On an average fall day with 8 mph winds, using windflags, I would expect to hit the can more times than not.

Cold bore, one shot, some luck.

What do you think?

mike
 
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Great Title. I am very new to air rifles 3 weeks. I have been shooting centerfire and 22lr since the early 80s and love shooting. I have not hunted since the 90s. All my hunting rifles revolve around the northeast mainly brush country, I take them out get the bores squeaky clean and dry and make sure the first and second shot from a cold barrel go where I aim. They are capable of outshooting me and in the hands of a marksman are easily 400 yard guns. Myself I would never dream of chancing such a long shot without much more practice in appropriate conditions. However minute of can sounds like what my current air rifles are capable of at close range 50 yds max as of now offhand. I am still learning to shoot them consistently and I like that they shoot the same whether first shot or fiftieth like a high grade 22lr. I am amazed at the accuracy of some of the PCP rifles some people shoot at the range and do not doubt their long range skills. Until recently I only considered air rifles for cans and bottles and did not realize the advancements they have made since I was a kid. Minute of can sounds like a great measure of accuracy for future shooters.:) 
 
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And correct, I was not thinking of maximum point Blank Range. For years 100 with 257 Weatherby Magnum, it had an absolutely incredible MPBR.

For mule deer hunting out west, I felt my set up was minute of deer out to 600, depending on conditions. That means that I was capable with Rifle to shoot 3 inch Groups at 600 yards. I had to make the decision as to whether conditions allowed such a shot. I would never shoot past 500 unless things were absolutely pristine. Testing before hand with my shooting sticks at 400 yards I could shoot Apple size groups. Many would people would think MOA is plenty good at 600, After all that’s the size of the Killzone.

But think about it. If the rifle can shoot a 6 inch group. And you make any mistake, either on trigger pull, your ability to hold the rifle steady while your heart is thundering WIND and all the other things that can go wrong. Most of the time you were going to be off the Killzone. At least half.

If you have a half MOA Rifle. That translates into a 3 inch group again, theoretically. I guarantee you, you will shoot a smaller groups with a half MOA-100 yard Rifle, than you will with one that shoots 1 inch groups.

My best long range rifle ever was capable of half inch groups, and three-quarter inch groups occasionally at 200. It was a hand loaded 6.5 x 2 84 single shot with a 40 X nightforce scope with graduations on it. I was young, I could carry that tank around. The fact that it was a heavy beast and that I used shooting sticks and a bum bag, meant that I was rocksteady. I knew how fast the wind was blowing. So I’m less likely to make a mistake there. The trigger was a target trigger. Loads were exactly the same. So in some conditions I would actually actually shoot a deer at 600 yards maybe even 650. I never did shoot that rifle at a deer. Never had the chance.

So long story to say, to me that rifle was minute of deer out to 600 in great conditions otherwise probably 500.

Not many factory rifles with factory ammo would meet the criteria in my mind. That’s what I shoot now, but I would never go up to 600.

mike
 
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I also think we need to define whether it’s “first shot” or are they walked in with sighters? Do we take that shot under current conditions, or wait for ideal conditions.

I put out a Four Quarters Challenge a year or two back. Take four quarters spaced randomly around a spot at distances from 150 to 200 yards. You get one shot at each quarter. How many do you think a highly skilled shooter with a state of the art Airgun shooting slugs would hit? My guess is MAYBE one, and two would be extremely lucky. Prone position allowed with bipod. 
 
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As far as the variance of skill between shooters. Any rifle is subject to the shooter behind the trigger. So if you ask someone, is your red wolf minute of Can accurate at 150 yards? They will answer to their experience with that rifle. 

And you’re not trying to shoot a smaller group group than I am, you’re trying to blow up a tin can


I bet most of the guys who troll on this portion of the forum could take one of my red wolves, and smashed in cans at 150. 
 175.

The video I show below was not that hard. I couldn’t even hold the rifle, and I was looking at a blown a picture of an older camera phone. I guarantee you, if you’re reading this, you could’ve physically made the shot. The wind is another story I was actually holding in mild switches. Watch where the crosshairs are on the different shots and where it hits on the can.
https://www.airgunnation.com/topic/exploding-cans-with-the-red-%f0%9f%90%ba-at-194-pellets-real-world-conditions-video/?referrer=1

Direct link to the video.https://vimeo.com/562493577

mike


 
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CC

First shot makes no sense to me with an air gun at these distances, If I’m trying to define how accurate the rifle is. From my experience you’d miss at least 40% of the time just because it’s not hitting where it was yesterday in what looked like a similar condition but it’s not


I picked a tin cans size target, purposely, so we could stretch it out a bit.

mike
 
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It’s a pain in the butt to put out targets walk out there walk back staple them up take them down etc. at 190 yards. It’s also good exercise.

Sometimes I just shoot up the dirt. I want to see what’s going on with the wind, I’m between calls, I sit down and shoot at 190 yards and just see where they go. I got that from AZ, it’s fun. 

if you’re doing that, and a chipmunk shows up, and you get him in one shot, is that a one shot kill?

this is not about hunting
Maybe prairie dog hunting, I know there’s guys on this channel who’ve done it. I think that would be a gas. And if you figured out it was about an 8 inch wind. You hit more often than miss. Then it would change to a 6 inch win for a while, and then maybe get up to 12.

mike


 
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CC

First shot makes no sense to me with an air gun at these distances, If I’m trying to define how accurate the rifle is. From my experience you’d miss at least 40% of the time just because it’s not hitting where it was yesterday in what looked like a similar condition but it’s not


I picked a tin cans size target, purposely, so we could stretch it out a bit.

mike
Click to expand...

I guess we even view the definition of "gun accuracy" differently. When someone asks if a rifle is capable of X accuracy, to me that has nothing to do with the shooter. It is what the gun is capable of. Once you know how accurate the gun can be, what the individual can then do with it seems to become the bottom line but doesn't represent "gun accuracy" to me. And what the individual can do with it is almost always determined not just by the shooter's ability but also by current conditions and even personal differences day by day. 

We seem to differ in approach primarily. I view the question more as CC does-first shot determined, and that meaning walk out the door and hit what you shoot at. If I understand correctly, you don't put the value on first shot hits in the same way and view the important part as being able to move to it and then repeatedly hit the target until conditions change. Each view is only correct for the individual in question.

As the poster from UK mentioned with his shooting sub 12 guns at long range, my question would be why? Not effective for anything but making a hole in paper. But that seems to be what he enjoys, and that is perfectly fine. Makes no sense to me but if that is one's goal then that's all that matters. 

"this is not about hunting
Maybe prairie dog hunting, I know there’s guys on this channel who’ve done it. I think that would be a gas. And if you figured out it was about an 8 inch wind. You hit more often than miss. Then it would change to a 6 inch win for a while, and then maybe get up to 12." --- You are defining your process based on what you value, and that's fine. But those who hunt and pest might well view it differently. And when you're shooting that 8" wind and it shifts to 6", you'll miss. Then you have to correct and "work it in" again. Fine to do, but seemingly not what everyone will value.

"I bet most of the guys who troll on this portion of the forum could take one of my red wolves, and smashed in cans at 150. 
 175." --- I don't believe so, unless they are going to shoot sighters as you note and then they will hit only until conditions change a bit. Not to insult you but I bet YOU can't do it repeatedly, if you walk out, sit down, and fire a shot.

Not sure what to think of the "troll" bit.


 
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It actually was supposed to be trolling, like when you’re trolling fishing.

I’m kind of chuckling right now because now I understand that trolls are bad. And I didn’t mean that at all. Which is just interesting about the Internet and written language, and how it can be misinterpreted. And I’m glad you pointed it out.

I’ve been enjoying the banter on this new long-range channel. All of it. And I appreciate your responses.

I think I would hit a tin can at 190 more often then I would miss, First shot cold. But it will be close. And I’m going to try it.

I think most of the guys who are interested in shooting at this distance, would be very surprised to learn that if I sat them down at my bench. They Took a couple shots. And then I asked them to shoot tin cans
I think they would be hitting more than missing. And I understand that’s very different than the cold shot.

Oh, I also think they would be smiling.

mike
 
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Now I get the troll message.

I'm sure just hitting a target with an airgun at those distances would be fun, and I can see the attraction. We just shoot differently and value different aspects of shooting. 

"I think I would hit a tin can at 190 more often then I would miss, First shot cold. But it will be close. And I’m going to try it." --- Certainly possible, and good for you for taking on the task.
 
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CC - 4 1/4s Challenge


I think if you took the top 10 shooters from this years EBR. Gave them all a tuned RedWolf in 22 or 25, a rifle that shoots well with 🐌s.

Then you gave them a week to practice with the ammo that works best in that rifle.

If you then had them shoot that exercise without knowing what the distance was, and this caveat. It’s their home course. So they can guess distances to some degree. They may also be able to read the window bit better than some unknown course.

I would guess that most of them would miss all of the shots. Because you have such good shooters, some are going to hit one. One may hit two quarters.

It’s kind of like if you took 10 top pro golfers, And told them the first one who Chips In gets $1,000,000.00. And they each get a bucket of balls. At 30 yards they would be shooting pretty fast. And I don’t think it would take very long. At 50 yards the pace might slow a bit. At 75 yards it’s a much different game, they’re going to be taking their time on each shot. At 100 yards someone would probably still get a hole-in-one. At 150 not so much.

In my opinion that’s about how hard your quarters game is. Almost impossible without a little luck. And that’s the top of the heap


How did people do when they tried it?

mike


 
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first shot hits requires a completely different skill set on top of the ability to shoot accurately or a very tight group. A tight group is the starting point of first shot skill. When I use to hunt a bit more I would shoot 100 yard groups and as soon as I get that MOA group I would plug in All the ballistic info into the calculator and shoot at random things/rocks at random distances both closer and farther than 100 yards. If I get all the ballistic and ranging correct I could actually hit 2 inch rocks on the first shot consistently well pass 100 yards. I’ve one shot pigeons at over 100 yards before and it’s pretty easy if you sort out your ballistic system. 


a lot of people comment that Matt Dubber in his videos cherry pick his shots to be on film and have more misses than hits. I have to disagree because I was able to replicate mostly what he does and have very high first shot hit success rate if I get my ballistics all sorted. 
 
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