Wind fight factor.

Well, all of us now that accuracy of .177 Cal is very bad with wind factor.

Let´s try to meassure eficienciy vs. wind on each caliber making a ratio of weight of pellet divided by caliber.

We know that .30 Cal is more efficient to fight with wind,

The wind is a constant variable and the projectile diameter and weigh varies.

Let´s try to meassure how much .30 Cal is more efficient in the battle with wind that .177 Cal.

I am assuming that all pellets have the same shape in order to not enter into aerodynamic discussion.

Let´s see.....

What we get:




 
I have never been in an EBR competition.

If we look at this numbers it is clear that if you do not create cathegories depending of caliber and projectile, you are not meassuring the skills of the shooter.

That kind of competence should compare apples with apples and there´s no way to do it if a .177 shooter pretend to win to a .30 shooter.

.177 shooter is suffering almost 4 times the wind effect that the one shooting .30 Cal. It implies a completly different difficulty test to deal with.




 
Enrique,

Thank you for doing the calculations. 👍🏼

That's an important observation you're making there — and one of the reasons I have discarded the idea of ever shooting .177 cal again.....

Because the flatter trajectory of the .177 is great, but I can compensate for the steeper trajectory with heavier pellets by simply using a laser rangefinder — my quarry usually gives me those additional seconds.

But to compensate for wind drift in ever changing, swirling, gusting conditions.... — well, that's a lot harder to do. Very few shooters will even notice a 1 or 2mph wind, and at range that make a big difference in wind drift.

Matthias
 
I'm not sure exactly what the "efficiency" factor means in the chart. But if the suggestion is that a 50 grain 30 caliber is 3 times as efficient as a 10 grain .177, and if that means it will drift only 1/3 as much as a 10 grain .177, I don't think that's correct. I have no big bore air rifle experience, but have shot centerfire cartridges of 30 and 22 caliber, and at the same velocity, and the difference in wind drift was not nearly as dramatic as the numbers above suggest, if I'm interpreting correctly.
 
The biggest advantage using a smaller caliber would be that the scoring plug is .30 caliber at EBR. Regardless of caliber size it's going to take some serious skill to be competitive, especially at 100. I've encountered those who consider themselves professional to not even hit the target board even with a .25 caliber. Regardless of wind drift the key is to find consistency and have enough skill to read that to make accurate shots. Those I've seen that do well are quickly moving from sighter to target before the wind changes. For some shots I think a little luck comes into play. Lol 
 
I think wind drift is more proportional to the pellets BC. So a .22 RD Monster with a BC of 0.052 would drift half as much as a .177 Exact with a BC of 0.026

And that same .22 RD Monster would actually drift less than the .30 cal JSB 50.1 grain with a BC of 0.046. Makes you think doesn’t it?

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/the-external-ballistics-of-diabolo-pellets/

That is much more consistent with my CF experience. I've seen various charts and tables of trajectory, and some are just nuts. IMO, there are so many variables involved, using charts or formulas for anything more than a very rough guide, is a mistake. As with most things, experience trumps all. Our world of electronics, gizmos and gadgets sometimes gets in the way of learning. But, I'm old and probably wrong.
 
Under 50 yards I have not notice a difference. The .177 hits where you aim at.

Shooting from 110 yards and up to 200 yards is where the difference is easy to notice.

Maybe even at long distance in an indoor shooting place, because of no wind, accuracy could be closer among calibers.

I do not pretend to say that the numbers I got are a perfect way to meassure the wind factor. It is just the way I thought I could guess an estimate.
 
I am not an expert but thouse charts

I think wind drift is more proportional to the pellets BC. So a .22 RD Monster with a BC of 0.052 would drift half as much as a .177 Exact with a BC of 0.026

And that same .22 RD Monster would actually drift less than the .30 cal JSB 50.1 grain with a BC of 0.046. Makes you think doesn’t it?

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/the-external-ballistics-of-diabolo-pellets/

I am not an expert but thouse charts also assume the pellets are not wobling. Think it was Ted Bier who said in one of his videos, that tail wind (from behind the pellet), can make the pellet start wobling. So that was why he choosed the mid 800 range. Often guns are tested for accuracy in a non windy situation, and then 900+ might work well, but in a benchrest competition, a litle woble will make the BC drop more than in theory. The 1000fps BC would in reallife scenario probably be much higher, as few guns can probably achive that speed without pellets destabilising.
 
I am not an expert but thouse charts

I think wind drift is more proportional to the pellets BC. So a .22 RD Monster with a BC of 0.052 would drift half as much as a .177 Exact with a BC of 0.026

And that same .22 RD Monster would actually drift less than the .30 cal JSB 50.1 grain with a BC of 0.046. Makes you think doesn’t it?

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/the-external-ballistics-of-diabolo-pellets/

I am not an expert but thouse charts also assume the pellets are not wobling. Think it was Ted Bier who said in one of his videos, that tail wind (from behind the pellet), can make the pellet start wobling. So that was why he choosed the mid 800 range. Often guns are tested for accuracy in a non windy situation, and then 900+ might work well, but in a benchrest competition, a litle woble will make the BC drop more than in theory. The 1000fps BC would in reallife scenario probably be much higher, as few guns can probably achive that speed without pellets destabilising.


i expect that is why some air rifles may be more accurate with a shroud or moderator that reduces the air behind the pellet once it exits the barrel. this can also be true for centerfire rifles.
 
I'm not sure exactly what the "efficiency" factor means in the chart. But if the suggestion is that a 50 grain 30 caliber is 3 times as efficient as a 10 grain .177, and if that means it will drift only 1/3 as much as a 10 grain .177, I don't think that's correct. I have no big bore air rifle experience, but have shot centerfire cartridges of 30 and 22 caliber, and at the same velocity, and the difference in wind drift was not nearly as dramatic as the numbers above suggest, if I'm interpreting correctly.

In my experience air rifles and fire arms are completely different in projectile travel (shape, speed, bc, etc.).

I do not see how to apply fire arms bullet knowledge to air rifle pellets. 
 
I think wind drift is more proportional to the pellets BC. So a .22 RD Monster with a BC of 0.052 would drift half as much as a .177 Exact with a BC of 0.026

And that same .22 RD Monster would actually drift less than the .30 cal JSB 50.1 grain with a BC of 0.046. Makes you think doesn’t it?

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/the-external-ballistics-of-diabolo-pellets/



👆👆👆 that!



BC of a projectile is the measurable and verifiable metric on how the projectile is affected by wind. This system has been tested and validated by endless mathematicians with every sort of method possible for hundreds of years now. Just plug the BC numbers into a ballistic calculator and verify it in your guns. No need to reinvent the wheels here and even if you do it probably will ended up to be the BC system. 


caliber or weight alone does not indicate it’s ability to fight wind. Just look like 308 vs 260 or 270 or 6.5 creedmore. 



 
I found the video by Ted Bier explaining why he choosed 830 fps for his gun. He first tested at 860, but some pellets did destabilise causing flyers in the wind, then he went down to 830, and they dissapeared. According to him, the wind itself destabilised the pellet, not the muzle blast. Look at from 7:50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNONcrNmWDE&t=6s&ab_channel=TedsHoldOver So even the most optimistic teoretical BC will not be true if the pellets are wobling. 
 
I think wind drift is more proportional to the pellets BC. So a .22 RD Monster with a BC of 0.052 would drift half as much as a .177 Exact with a BC of 0.026

And that same .22 RD Monster would actually drift less than the .30 cal JSB 50.1 grain with a BC of 0.046. Makes you think doesn’t it?

https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/the-external-ballistics-of-diabolo-pellets/

Thanks Centercut,

From what you shared to us and from what I found in wikipedia, I made some cut and paste that I thought would be interesting to note.

1.- BCs can be used to accurately estimate the amount of drop a pellet takes at different ranges. That means the parabolic trajectory.

2.- In my experience, when pellet shooting, the amount of drop is really similar in diverse JSB pellets irrespective of the caliber if they fly at same speed (FPS).

3.- The main aspect that affects the accuracy at long range is wind factor: How much the pellet is afected by the wind.

There could be a lot of mathematical BC calculations, but what we all have experienced is that a 100 yards wind factor is the key in a .177 air rifle.

4.- The pellet has a weight and the wind has a weight. There are components of interaction among those two forces: The caliber of the pellet and the lenght of the pellet (volume) that is supported by the weigh of the pellet. The weight of the wind should be consider a constant.

Next I include some cut and paste.

Quote:

"Because the BC changes with the pellet’s velocity, there is actually no single Ballistic Coefficient for any airgun pellet!

And due to the variability inherent in each individual airgun pellet, the Ballistic Coefficient of two “identical” pellets can also be different!

In spite of all these issues, knowing a typical Ballistic Coefficient value for the pellets you are shooting is highly beneficial for calculating their trajectory. In conjunction with a software program such as Chairgun, BCs can be used to accurately estimate the amount of drop a pellet takes at different ranges. You need this for accurate shooting!"



"Methods and the standard projectile[edit]

Many militaries up until the 1860s used calculus to compute the projectile trajectory. The numerical computations necessary to calculate just a single trajectory was lengthy, tedious and done by hand. So, investigations to develop a theoretical drag model began. The investigations led to a major simplification in the experimental treatment of drag. This was the concept of a "standard projectile". The ballistic tables are made up for a factitious projectile being defined as: "a factitious weight and with a specific shape and specific dimensions in a ratio of calibers." This simplifies calculation for the ballistic coefficient of a standard model projectile, which could mathematically move through the standard atmosphere with the same ability as any actual projectile could move through the actual atmosphere.[31][32][10]"

Wind Drift

When you shoot in a crosswind, the pellet drifts sideways, causing your POI to be downwind of your POA. The largest factor governing the magnitude of this drift is the BC.

There are many misconceptions about wind drift, the biggest being that “time to target” is the key. That is NOT the case. The wind drift is proportional to the DIFFERENCE in the actual time of flight, compared to what it would be in a vacuum. This is called the “lag time”.

This is a difficult thing to wrap your brain around, and even harder to explain without involved mathematics, so I will leave to you Google it if you don’t believe me. However, it is a fact that we have to deal with when considering the external ballistics of diabolo pellets.

Since the lag time is the key, then how fast the pellet slows down (mostly governed by the BC) is the key. The chart below show how much the wind drift changes as we change the BC. "



I would disagree in the following statement: "The largest factor governing the magnitude of this drift is the BC."

If we agree that BCs can be used to accurately estimate the amount of drop a pellet takes at different ranges, that means that BC is meassuring the interaction with one force: gravity.

Wind drift is a diverse force that is not vertical but mainly horizontal to the ground

Then I would lke to go back to my initial comment in this thread: "Let´s try to meassure eficienciy vs. wind on each pellet". 

For sure there has to be some factors to take into account:

Weight of the pellet and surface in contact with wind, ant time of suffering the efect of the wind force before getting to target.

The quickest loss of acceleration of a pellet, the more time in contact with wind force before getting to target.

Loss of acceleration is related with weight and speed. If the speed is a constant in all calibers, then the weigh and volume is what determines the interaction with the cross force of the wind.








 
@EMU: in vacuum a feather will reach the ground at the same time as a ball of lead if dropped from same high. BC is the measurement how air affect the projectile. As you pointed out at different speed air affect objects differently just like driving 100mph take a ton more gas than driving at 65mph. This is why bullet manufactures publish BC for different speeds but obviously not pellets because there isn’t enough money in it. If we stating to pay 1 dollar per projectiles then I’m sure they will publish BC for different speed at 50fps increments. 


The same force that would slow down a pellet is closely related to how wind affect it side ways. If you look at ballistic calculators they will ask for caliber and projectile length which is used to calculate effect of the wind, think of it as horizontal sectional density.



Just use ballistic calculators like strelok or applied ballistic and it’s far more accurate than anything we can come up with unless you are a math genius with all sorts of crazy accurate instruments to measure everything. The applied ballistic folks do exactly that for a living and they are damn good at it, plus this math has been vetted for literally centuries! 
 
I would disagree in the following statement: "The largest factor governing the magnitude of this drift is the BC."...
Loss of acceleration is related with weight and speed. If the speed is a constant in all calibers, then the weigh and volume is what determines the interaction with the cross force of the wind.

weight and shape are integral in the BC, so the statement is correct, and so are you.

https://www.airgundepot.com/vault/articles/all-about-ballistic-coefficient/
 
The following figures that include lateral surface area of the pellet in contact to cross wind during flight, should be really close to reality:



IMG_20210816_111255585.1629130945.jpg

 
So is your theory that for example, the JSB .30 cal 50.1 drifts less in the wind than say the JSB .25 cal King Heavy? Even though the King Heavy has a BC significantly higher than the 50.1 grain JSB? And are you disagreeing with Bob Sterne's statements below?

______________________________________________________________________

When you shoot in a crosswind, the pellet drifts sideways, causing your POI to be downwind of your POA. The largest factor governing the magnitude of this drift is the BC.

There are many misconceptions about wind drift, the biggest being that “time to target” is the key. That is NOT the case. The wind drift is proportional to the DIFFERENCE in the actual time of flight, compared to what it would be in a vacuum. This is called the “lag time”.

This is a difficult thing to wrap your brain around, and even harder to explain without involved mathematics, so I will leave to you Google it if you don’t believe me. However, it is a fact that we have to deal with when considering the external ballistics of diabolo pellets.

Since the lag time is the key, then how fast the pellet slows down (mostly governed by the BC) is the key.