For example, 1/4 MOA vs 1/8 MOA vs 1/10 MOA per click
And likewise .1 Mil Rad vs .05 Mil Rad
Thanks,
And likewise .1 Mil Rad vs .05 Mil Rad
Thanks,
When does click value matter in an airgun scope?
- Thread starter RicL
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How precisely do you want to be able to adjust your setup?
If you're ok with just hitting close to your aim point, then anything will do, if you wanna dial in that last little bit of perfect accuracy, those fine increments are great.
Nothing like the frustration of having to choose left or right side bias for impact simply because your optics don't have enough fine adjustments.
If you're ok with just hitting close to your aim point, then anything will do, if you wanna dial in that last little bit of perfect accuracy, those fine increments are great.
Nothing like the frustration of having to choose left or right side bias for impact simply because your optics don't have enough fine adjustments.
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Example 1/4 MOA is supposed to be about 1/4 in at 100 yd. At 25 yd, it would be 1/4 of that again so a 1/4 MOA click value scope would shift your point of impact (POA) approximately 16th of an inch per click at 25 yd. Is that enough precision or do you need more? As Paul Harrell says, you be the judge.
I've always been satisfied with one quarter MOA for general testing plinking and light target use.
I've always been satisfied with one quarter MOA for general testing plinking and light target use.
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Depends on what you are doing with your setup. The finer adjustment 1/8moa/0.5mil will allow you to be more precise with your zero, sometimes even at closer ranges. But for more coarse work, like hunting or steel it might not matter as much to you. All my scopes are 0.1mil, and use mil reticles because I am dumb and that makes things easier for me lol.
For reference, 0.1mil is about 0.36" at 100 yards. So that would be more coarse of an adjustment than your typical 1/4moa (~0.25"). Sometimes, depending on the rifle and ammo etc, I cannot get a perfect zero.
For reference, 0.1mil is about 0.36" at 100 yards. So that would be more coarse of an adjustment than your typical 1/4moa (~0.25"). Sometimes, depending on the rifle and ammo etc, I cannot get a perfect zero.
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So 1/4 MOA & .1 Mil Rad for hunting (faster to dial) ?
While 1/8 MOA & .05 Mil Rad for long range target?
Interested in a scope for long range paper but but it is .1 Mil Rad. Concerned it will be too coarse for airgun use.
While 1/8 MOA & .05 Mil Rad for long range target?
Interested in a scope for long range paper but but it is .1 Mil Rad. Concerned it will be too coarse for airgun use.
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I guess with most air guns the farther you go out the more meaningless the value means.. still wrather its 1 click =1/4 true value of the scope or 1/2" true to the airgun pellet drop it still zeros if fast straight or loppy mortar trajectory.
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All of my MIL scopes are 0.1 and I have never had an issue with them being too coarse. I had one 0.05 scope and was not a huge fan of the extra clicks. I actually prefer the 0.1 clicks because of the quick and easy math. 1=1 and every MIL is an easy multiple of 10 clicks.
I do have an MOA scope and it is 1/8. It is finer and it is on my precision gun. It didn’t come with a MIL option, or I would probably have gotten it.
The clicks are usually more than enough for zeroing a rifle, but as said above, it depends on your needs.
I do have an MOA scope and it is 1/8. It is finer and it is on my precision gun. It didn’t come with a MIL option, or I would probably have gotten it.
The clicks are usually more than enough for zeroing a rifle, but as said above, it depends on your needs.
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I use most of my scopes on airguns and PB guns and am often swapping them around. Because of that I will always choose 1/8 MOA or 0.05 Mil Clicks if I can get them over the larger movement. My choice of last resort would be 1/10 mil which ends up being far too large even at 100 yards for me, particularly with my guns that shoot groups that are less than 1/10 mil!
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1 MOA is closer than 1 Mil to zero, if what I'm reading is correct.I've got both and I'm leaning towards MOA. 1/4 moa -=.25" 1/10 mil = .36" at 100 yards
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Any of those 1/10mil groups at 100 yards with an airgun? I think that'd be 0.36inch GROUPS
!!! If an airgun, please share the details. Actually, if a firearm I'd still be curious to know what gun is doing that.Upvote 0
For long range using .1 mil clicks are less painful especially when going ELR and 10 mils per turn keeps things simple.
Speaking of long range there are very few airguns that will consistently shoot 1 moa even at 100Y, then of course past that it gets worse, so having fine click values doesn't make much if any difference.
Granted I'm not very bright but when I used to use 1/8th moa adjustments for FT I'd occasionally forget to dial back to zero after I shot at 10Y which was exactly one revolution higher than my 30Y zero. Next shot was one rev high of whatever target I dialed next for, lol, kiss that match win goodby. Hasn't happened since when I went to .1 mil increments.
For BR a finer adjustment is nice. I wouldn't mind 1/10th moa clicks as well as a plain dot reticle.
Speaking of long range there are very few airguns that will consistently shoot 1 moa even at 100Y, then of course past that it gets worse, so having fine click values doesn't make much if any difference.
Granted I'm not very bright but when I used to use 1/8th moa adjustments for FT I'd occasionally forget to dial back to zero after I shot at 10Y which was exactly one revolution higher than my 30Y zero. Next shot was one rev high of whatever target I dialed next for, lol, kiss that match win goodby. Hasn't happened since when I went to .1 mil increments.
For BR a finer adjustment is nice. I wouldn't mind 1/10th moa clicks as well as a plain dot reticle.
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One thing to add, as I think many people get caught up in the distance MOA or MIL is at 100 yards, I know I did picking out my first competition style scopes, but I have found it to be least important.
As @Franklink and @steve123 both also mention, counting those clicks to me becomes a big deal, and how much space it takes for this clicks (turns on the turret)… To me, that has always come up being more important than 1/4” or .36” at 100 yards. Don’t forget, that is at 100 yards, and you usually aren’t zeroing an air rifle at 100 yards. That fraction becomes much smaller at zeroing distances, which is where the finer adjustability matters most.
At 100 yards, you are holding off for wind most of the time even if you have tried to dial most of it out. So, that difference in measurement gets thrown out the window. However, adjustments on the fly and taking time to divide by 8 or 4 invites error that just isn’t there when dividing by 10. 10s come to your brain without a second thought, but dividing by 4 or 8 takes a touch more and invites mistakes. I never sit there and think, I need to hold off 1/4” or whatever, but I do look at my reticle and say I need to hold off 0.2Mil or 0.5MOA. So again, those measurements in inches mean nothing to me, and frankly to anyone I’m shooting with or hear spotting. They are usually calling out holds in MOA or MIL and that preference can change with your shooting disciple crowd.
If this is all obvious, I apologize, but I think it is worth pointing out.
As @Franklink and @steve123 both also mention, counting those clicks to me becomes a big deal, and how much space it takes for this clicks (turns on the turret)… To me, that has always come up being more important than 1/4” or .36” at 100 yards. Don’t forget, that is at 100 yards, and you usually aren’t zeroing an air rifle at 100 yards. That fraction becomes much smaller at zeroing distances, which is where the finer adjustability matters most.
At 100 yards, you are holding off for wind most of the time even if you have tried to dial most of it out. So, that difference in measurement gets thrown out the window. However, adjustments on the fly and taking time to divide by 8 or 4 invites error that just isn’t there when dividing by 10. 10s come to your brain without a second thought, but dividing by 4 or 8 takes a touch more and invites mistakes. I never sit there and think, I need to hold off 1/4” or whatever, but I do look at my reticle and say I need to hold off 0.2Mil or 0.5MOA. So again, those measurements in inches mean nothing to me, and frankly to anyone I’m shooting with or hear spotting. They are usually calling out holds in MOA or MIL and that preference can change with your shooting disciple crowd.
If this is all obvious, I apologize, but I think it is worth pointing out.
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Any of those 1/10mil groups at 100 yards with an airgun? I think that'd be 0.36inch GROUPS
With an airgun? Only in my DREAMS! I haven't broken 1 MOA yet at 100 with any airgun I have shot including an FX M3 Impact in 22 and 30, an Uragan 2 in 22 and a Prophet 2 in 22 and 30., but I haven't fired more than maybe 200 rounds total through all those guns from the bench so far, at 100 yards.
I have a few PB guns that have given me sub 1/10 mil and some sub 1/4 MOA groups at 100 yards over the last 30 years. It doesn't happen all the time but often enough to make think I could do it again next week. As I get older, even less often, especially with the guns that have sub 50x scope magnification on the high end.
Sub 1/10 Mil guns that I can remember over the last 30 years
Custom built by me Ruger 10-22 with a range selected barrel from a large batch that I ordered years ago - smallest group ever was 0.135" CTC for 10 shots at 50 yards with Fed Gold ammo. Decades later with my poor eyesight and stiff neck, I can still do 1/4" or sometimes better at 50 yards with several lots ammo, but lately more around 1/2" for 10.
Two different Colt AR-15s from the Clinton era. One is a an HBAR heavy profile the other an M4 contour, both 16" with hard chrome lined barrels. 5 shots with a 24x scope
Two different Savage action, 22-250 AI - both have stainless heavy barrels - Adams & Bennet from Midway, bought about 20 years ago for $70 on closeout. I think it was made by ER Shaw. I still have some sitting in the original boxes in various calibers. scoped with 8-32x Sightrons or an old 5-25x? Bausch & Lomb.
AR-15 upper with a .9" bull 22 inch barrel on it. Unknown maker. I have shot several 5 shot sub 1/4" groups at 100 yards with this barrel using Hornaday V-Max bullets. 5 shot groups. Usually topped with a 4-20x scope of some kind.
Remington factory BDL in 17 Rem shooting Hornaday hollow points.
TC Contender 10" 17 Remington Bullberry barrel. 5 shot sub 1/10 mil groups at 50 yards, 3-12x Burris pistol scope.
Hart 17 Rem 16" heavy stainless on a Savage action - 10 shot groups at 100 yards - 8-32x scope
Krieger barreled AR-10 on a DPMS action in 308 Win shooting Sierra 168gr Match Kings. 5 shot groups at 100. 8-32x scope
Probably a few more that I have had over the years but I can't recall the specifics.
My best long range shot was with an Armalite AR-50 shooting Hornady Amax 750 grain over H50 BMG powder with a Sightron 8-32x scope. Just over 3/4 MOA at 1000 yards.
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Whatever you can remember and use that is rational, consistent and has the least input needed for accuracy.
For me 1/8" (0.125") @ 50 yards is more than needed, but relatable and easily scaled.
0.18" @ 50yds is also over kill, but not as relatable as a rational fraction, using calculations no problem and vastly superior at long distances.
For me 1/8" (0.125") @ 50 yards is more than needed, but relatable and easily scaled.
0.18" @ 50yds is also over kill, but not as relatable as a rational fraction, using calculations no problem and vastly superior at long distances.
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Do any of you remember or actually own and use a National Match rear sight for the M1 Garand or M14/M1A rifles? Pretty nifty design for almost 100 years ago. They used an eccentric movement finer elevation adjustment on the hooded peep itself by rotating it 180 degrees to move your POI up or down 1/2 MOA. Something like that would be pretty cool on a riflescope. They might exist but I have never seen one. 1 MOA clicks with the larger main knobs to get you there quickly then 1/8 MOA fine tuning total travel of perhaps 1.25 MOA in all 4 directions from the fine adjuster zero setting, using a smaller inner knob on top of each turret.
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.1 mil is 1 cm at 100 meters(110 yards). Can you really shoot groups less than 1 cm(.<4”) at 100 meters?
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Not with airguns, but absolutely with PB guns. I listed them in my previous post. Based on what I see at public shooting ranges, the average shooter would not be able to do that, But I know quite a few people who can and do shoot groups better than mine, frequently. I have witnessed numerous sub 0.20" 5 and 10 shot groups (HALF of what you believe is not possible?) at 100 yards. The current world record at 1000 yards is smaller than the very best groups some of my friends can shoot at 100 yards!
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