Resources Slugs vs pellets @ 100 yds

[Solo1]

Want to practice more in the wind for 100 yd matches so i waited till this afternoon when the winds were gusting to about 16 mph and quite variable. Also wanted to see the difference between pellets and slugs so i took my m3 out with some 33.9 jsb and some 34.9 nsa. I shot 2 25 target cards ( with 5 sighters) 1 with pellets and 1 with slugs. No wind flags and simply adjust for wind from last target and to my surprise the slugs only won by 3 points! Has anyone else tried such an experiment to see if slugs were the advantage most of us believe them to be?

 

[Franklink]

Here's some discussion from the first 6 or so months of the long range high power field target matches at Phoenix Rod and Gun Club.

XFT Phoenix, Slugs vs Rimfire vs Pellet scores

This is somewhat of a continuation of the discussion that started in this thread: https://www.airgunnation.com/threads/how-accurate-do-you-think-this-is-for-100-yards-in-almost-calm-conditions.1268758/ Felt like we (mostly myself) derailed that thread enough so I'm starting this one. The...

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At that time I'd yet to see a slug that shot even close to as well as a high BC pellets. I've since come across two different barrel/slug combinations that are actually what slugs claim to be: more wind resistant than pellets, while also being as accurate and precise as a pellet. So those two successful slug guns have slightly modified my opinion on this topic. Important to note that those two exceptional examples of slugs are statistically rare. I've messed with slugs from 20+ barrels, and only two combinations have been really good.

These two examples were from just last week.

Results - Ultimate Field Target at Phoenix Rod and Gun Club 10/05/23 Match Report

17 pellet shooters and 6 slug contenders combined for a total turn-out of 23 shooters for the night match on October 5th. We had contestants from as far away as Florida. The match started at dark and the weather was perfect, temps around 90 degrees with minimal wind to fight. A lot of...

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Results - Ultimate Field Target at Phoenix Rod and Gun Club 10/07/23 Match Report

For the second night match last week the slug to pellet distribution was a bit more even, 6 slug shooters and 8 pellet class competitors. All of our fine sponsors donated dual prize packages, one for each night, the 5th, and the 7th. The match report for the 5th details all they donated...

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Slug class and pellet class, same course, same conditons, so a relatively good comparison. The one and only Thayne Simmons was slug high shooter on both nights. If I've got my facts straight Thayne is the only person to ever win RMAC/EBR/and PA Cup in the same year, call it the "triple crown". Very little argument that Thayne is probably the most talented marksmen in airguns. And even Thayne was only a couple points up from the high pellet shooter on both nights.

So my current opinion? Out to 100 yards, a slug CAN do better than a good high BC pellet, but a REALLY accurate barrel/slug combo is rare, and the slugs won't do drastically better than the high BC pellet.

 

[Centercut]

I agree with Cole. Out to 100 yards, even though a slug MAY have better ballistics, its more the shooter in reality, as Cole mentioned from the 7 October night match at PR&GC. I think the record on the course was set by slugs?
However, in the recent year or two, there have been improvements in accuracy and in ballistics with slugs. They have been getting heavier, up to 40 grain in .22 and 60 grain in .25. The Altaros Boat tail are a good example, like the 49.5 Smooth in .25 caliber, or the ones that Steve M shot on Oct 5th at 60 grain "Queens" from Altaros. BCs are 0.21 from the 49.5 and 0.245 from the 60 grain.
I think these advantages aren't really seen until the distance stretches well past 100 yards. I was shooting the 49.5 slug and 50.1 pellet at 200 yards at a 4 inch swinger in breezy condition. I struggled to hit it more than once or twice (from prone) with a 50.1 pellet .30 caliber. But it was EASY to hit 10/10 with the high BC slugs.
I've been shooting NRL-22 recently, and although I'm not that good, I've noticed that NO ONE shoots pellets from their airguns.

 

[Peashooter]

I have tried both ( .177 ) at 90 yards, and i have not had super god luck with the pellets, the slugs are a whole other ballgame in that regard.
I have however seen peple shooting larger calibers, and do pretty damn well with pellets at distance.

I have to admit though i generally do not shoot pellets longer then the 50 M, but i have felt frisky on dead calm days, just not had much luck with the peas i shoot landing on the 2" Shoot N C targets i use, where as slugs pretty much always hit the 2" target.

 

[Franklink]

Yes, newly established slug record at long range high power field target at PRGC is Thayne Simmons with a 38/40. Pellet record is held by Mike Smith, a 36/40 if memory serves.

Hopefully the out to 100yard specification I made in the previous comment was sufficiently stressed. Go much past 100 yards and one of those rare exceptional barrel/slug combos really starts to shine. I shot a lot of high BC pellets and average BC (for a slug) slugs this summer at long range prairie dogs. Hit rate goes up drastically with slugs as distance increases. For the pellet and slug I was comparing, the slug really started to pull away from the pellet at anything past about 135 yards.

 

[Bladesx]

Just like pb units might need a twist change.

 

[bigHUN]

Not in competition but for my own interest only I shot 100 meter rings for scoring ( for competing against myself only), a variation of slugs and pellets, from all possible .25x700mm liners I could get to my hands. I documented every card during many months.
If I average the scores from pellets and slugs, the 34gn MK1's wins in my eyes. But this year JSB pellets I had to resize for consistency...

 

[Scotchmo]

If the winds are steady enough and you are adjusting based on the previous shot, you shouldn’t see much difference. Try holding on center in the wind with no compensation.

 

[Solo1]

If the winds are steady enough and you are adjusting based on the previous shot, you shouldn’t see much difference. Try holding on center in the wind with no compensation.

The range i shoot at never has consistent wind always going every which way. I’ve done this @ 50 yds with the 177 though and know what your saying.

 

[steve123]

Yes, newly established slug record at long range high power field target at PRGC is Thayne Simmons with a 38/40. Pellet record is held by Mike Smith, a 36/40 if memory serves.

OT a bit, sorry OP but this might be fun to think about.

Off bucket and sticks if its windy the force of this condition is upsetting the shooters steadiness as this person is buffeted by the wind. So those shooting pellets will need to aim out farther but the slug shooter might lose some advantage being that the shot must be timed well or no joy so its one of those things that is hard to judge perfectly how much advantage the slug shooter has here. That advantage can be slight but it only takes one more point to win a class or get high match score.

I'm still amazed I miss those 100Y targets with 22rf or the V3 with .245 BC slugs. Even if it seems the wind is only 2-4 mph coming from the right and I aim what I think is the correct call which is .3 mil right of center I often hit at 9:00 on the face plate. This has happened nearly every match and also in that match last Thursday with slugs of higher BC. This can be either the first shot or the second shot.
Last winter I missed the whole target off to the left with my 22rf on the first shot at 100Y in what seemed like 5-6 mph(not much) coming from the right then compensated for the next shot since I saw where I missed in the dirt and then knocked the target down. Basically a mil holdoff to hit center KZ. Kinda shocking these .15 BC bullets blow that much since I aimed off from center .4 mil that day.
If I had been shooting pellets I'd have to have aimed out 2.5 to 3 mils to hit center in that scenario.

I've shot my Uragan King in 25 cal with NSA 29gr and compared to the 34gr JSB's they do blow slightly less in the wind at 100Y and vertical is close to the same. Past a certain point in distance the slugs are way superior in spite of the lowish .075 BC I use to get dope to line up.

I haven't shot the V3 using the 60gr Altaros queens enough to make a solid determination if it is equal in consistency to my 22rf or not shooting in UFT. I'll just keep trying this winter, Lord willing, and see how it goes.

Just mentioning that someone got a 47/48 in rimfire division at UFT but Mike S probably has the record for 22rf in a 40 shot course??

 

[Franklink]

@steve123, I've got to admit that I haven't kept track of the high scores for the firearm shooters like I have the airguns.

The wind there at PRGC is so squirrely, and the terrain and foliage makes judging downrange winds quite difficult, especially at night. I've had many a head scratcher at after taking a shot and seeing what the wind did to it.

Using these matches as a basis for comparing slugs versus pellets isn't perfect. As you mentioned, the position we shoot from certainly isn't a benchrest. BUT, these seem to be the currently best comparison we have. I'm not aware of anywhere else where all the shots are witnessed, everybody is shooting at the same targets, and the distances are far enough for the difference in ballistics to maybe start to matter. Regardless, it's dang sure fun to analyze and compare.

 

[steve123]

@steve123, I've got to admit that I haven't kept track of the high scores for the firearm shooters like I have the airguns.

The wind there at PRGC is so squirrely, and the terrain and foliage makes judging downrange winds quite difficult, especially at night. I've had many a head scratcher at after taking a shot and seeing what the wind did to it.

Using these matches as a basis for comparing slugs versus pellets isn't perfect. As you mentioned, the position we shoot from certainly isn't a benchrest. BUT, these seem to be the currently best comparison we have. I'm not aware of anywhere else where all the shots are witnessed, everybody is shooting at the same targets, and the distances are far enough for the difference in ballistics to maybe start to matter. Regardless, it's dang sure fun to analyze and compare.

It'll be interesting to see in UFT how many of us transition to slugs or remain using pellets?!

Ha, if I had the time and energy I'd like to shoot through the course again but with pellets or with 22rf but it just doesn't work out.

 

[Centercut]

OT a bit, sorry OP but this might be fun to think about.

Off bucket and sticks if its windy the force of this condition is upsetting the shooters steadiness as this person is buffeted by the wind. So those shooting pellets will need to aim out farther but the slug shooter might lose some advantage being that the shot must be timed well or no joy so its one of those things that is hard to judge perfectly how much advantage the slug shooter has here. That advantage can be slight but it only takes one more point to win a class or get high match score.

I'm still amazed I miss those 100Y targets with 22rf or the V3 with .245 BC slugs. Even if it seems the wind is only 2-4 mph coming from the right and I aim what I think is the correct call which is .3 mil right of center I often hit at 9:00 on the face plate. This has happened nearly every match and also in that match last Thursday with slugs of higher BC. This can be either the first shot or the second shot.
Last winter I missed the whole target off to the left with my 22rf on the first shot at 100Y in what seemed like 5-6 mph(not much) coming from the right then compensated for the next shot since I saw where I missed in the dirt and then knocked the target down. Basically a mil holdoff to hit center KZ. Kinda shocking these .15 BC bullets blow that much since I aimed off from center .4 mil that day.
If I had been shooting pellets I'd have to have aimed out 2.5 to 3 mils to hit center in that scenario.

I've shot my Uragan King in 25 cal with NSA 29gr and compared to the 34gr JSB's they do blow slightly less in the wind at 100Y and vertical is close to the same. Past a certain point in distance the slugs are way superior in spite of the lowish .075 BC I use to get dope to line up.

I haven't shot the V3 using the 60gr Altaros queens enough to make a solid determination if it is equal in consistency to my 22rf or not shooting in UFT. I'll just keep trying this winter, Lord willing, and see how it goes.

Just mentioning that someone got a 47/48 in rimfire division at UFT but Mike S probably has the record for 22rf in a 40 shot course??

Steve, it looks like the guys shooting slugs at those two matches had an advantage over pellets, and also there's a good probability that the slug shooters were better also. We always say the pellet/slugs/BC, but rarely do we factor in the biggest variable, which is the shooter.

Both you and Thayne (Thursday) and Cole and Thayne (Saturday) shot very good slug scores, but the three of you are arguably the best shooters in the competition also. And except for the one Shooter with pellets Saturday, slugs dominated... I think you shot slugs with a BC (0.245 G1) double (or more) of the other two, and both Thayne and Cole shot slugs with approx. a 0.1 G1 BC.

I won't go into the FPE thing, although some feel it makes a difference in wind drift despite what the science says, but higher FPE does help with knocking down marginally functioning targets.

 

[Centercut]

It'll be interesting to see in UFT how many of us transition to slugs or remain using pellets?!

Ha, if I had the time and energy I'd like to shoot through the course again but with pellets or with 22rf but it just doesn't work out.

In NRL-22 and positional type shooting, slugs have ELIMINATED pellets for the most part. I haven't seen any serious PRS type airgun shooters using pellets....

 

[Franklink]

It'll be interesting to see in UFT how many of us transition to slugs or remain using pellets?!

Ha, if I had the time and energy I'd like to shoot through the course again but with pellets or with 22rf but it just doesn't work out.

I agree about wanting to shoot the same course on the same day with a different gun/projectile afterwards. But for me also, it just doesn't work out.

As to how many of us may switch over in the future...
I've only shot four projectiles at UFT matches. Two pellets and two slugs. The pellets have been the .20/15.89 with a BC of about 0.048, and the .22/25.4 with a BC of around 0.05-0.052.
The two slugs were the .22/34 Varmint knocker from Derricks V3, BC was around 0.12 if I remember correctly. The other slug I've used is the .20/18.9 NSA with a BC of 0.09 (although NSA reports it at more like 0.075).

Personally my better scores have been with slugs, but my pellet flingers are inferior when compared strictly to other pellets flingers (slower speeds, less power, less BC).

I will still shoot matches using pellets in the future. I like the challenge. Even my slug shooter is nowhere near the BC nor FPE of what you're shooting, but again, I like the challenge. For me I'll probably bring both guns and if the wind is bad on match day....slugs. They're no more accurate, but that better BC makes the wind reads slightly less critical.

 

[Franklink]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't PRS/NRL is often past 100 yards, sometimes even out to a couple hundred yards?

I shot with Josh and Dylan on Thurs night, both sponsored shooters that told me they shoot alot of PRS/NRL. I had lots of questions for them and from their responses got the impression that the matches they attend rarely stop at 100 yards like long range/high power field target has thus far done. (Mostly, these's an occasional target a few yards past 100).

 

[Franklink]

To say that slugs "dominated" is an inaccurate assessment.

Here's why: for the Oct 7 Match Scott H forfeited all four standing bipod shots b/c he shot them as standing tripod. His score prior to the forfeiture was 32/40, or 80%. Thayne scored a 30/40, 75%. And if we take out those 4 shots that Scott got zero points for in the final standings, he scored a 28/36, which is 77.8% Or completely ignore the 4forfeited points and call it 28/40, still 70% knockdown, which is right there with the slugs.

Scott was using a Red Wolf and the .22 Monster RDs. I vaguely remember him telling me he's shooting them in the 960-970fps range.

So either way we consider it (with and without forfeiture) Scott, had a better knockdown % than Thayne, who was shooting slugs, and well, Thayne is also Thayne.

Also to consider, this was the match with strong and viciously deceiving winds.

If we look at the Oct 5th match, and try to take out the potential skew of shooter skill by looking at the top 5 scores from each class..... Pellets were 152/200 and slugs were 153/200. PRETTY DANG CLOSE.

 

[steve123]

Steve, it looks like the guys shooting slugs at those two matches had an advantage over pellets, and also there's a good probability that the slug shooters were better also. We always say the pellet/slugs/BC, but rarely do we factor in the biggest variable, which is the shooter.

Both you and Thayne (Thursday) and Cole and Thayne (Saturday) shot very good slug scores, but the three of you are arguably the best shooters in the competition also. And except for the one Shooter with pellets Saturday, slugs dominated... I think you shot slugs with a BC (0.245 G1) double (or more) of the other two, and both Thayne and Cole shot slugs with approx. a 0.1 G1 BC.

I won't go into the FPE thing, although some feel it makes a difference in wind drift despite what the science says, but higher FPE does help with knocking down marginally functioning targets.

I think the science should indicate the hit probability will go up using slugs on average and of course that's "if" there are no issues with guns, or scopes, etc.
It's a interesting thing that if its calmish out the advantage slugs should have might be lost.
Then if its windy out the buffeting of the shooter comes into play but slugs should still come out ahead at least a little.
In low to medium winds where there is little buffeting of the shooter, and slugs having a much higher BC, in this condition it should allow slugs to have the greatest chance of getting the high score.

Yep we all have good shooting days and bad shooting days. Scott had one awesome shooting day at UFT on Saturday night! Though it seems when he ditched his other gun and got the Redwolf his scores immediately went way up so he's become a top contender now with pellets.
Thayne, well, he'd be tough to beat but we'll be trying. Man that guy must be living right?!
I'm sure Cole will have his share of wins either slug or pellet.

Oh man those 60gr Queens will smack a UFT target down HARD for sure! The guys I was shooting with on Thursday night were freaking out about that a little.

Yeah, yeah, I know its a excuse but nevertheless my leg cramped up on one lane (Ha the clock was ticking and there I was punching that mussle hard to loosen it) almost timed out and then I missed the next two shots which still infuriates me.
But that's the way it goes, first your money then your clothes.

Now if we can only get ole Centercut out to UFT this winter those Altaros 49.5's out of your Panthera should do well.

 

[steve123]

In NRL-22 and positional type shooting, slugs have ELIMINATED pellets for the most part. I haven't seen any serious PRS type airgun shooters using pellets....

Personally I wouldn't use pellets either. I think due to the dynamic nature of the sport one needs all the advantage they can get.
I tried a few stages one time with a Impact using 34gr pellets and there was no comparison to my 22rf in medium winds.