Regulated PCP - First shot low on improperly tuned gun

Before I was aware of properly tuning the hammer spring tension to the regulator pressure, I simply backed off the HST when I got my gun to shoot the .22 JSB Hades to around 950 FPS without changing the regulator. The problem was, my gun's tune from the factory was shooting the Hades at 1100 FPS. So going down to 950 FPS with just the HST was a massive decrease in HST. I only became aware of the problem when I was troubleshooting and noticed that the misses were happening on first shots of the day according to my logs. I remember specifically 1 instance where I took a shot at a rodent at around 30 meters. The shot really felt good as I broke the sear as I've taken many shots at the same distance with no issues even with my TX200... In this case though, the animal just looked around as if nothing had happened. I am estimating that the shot must have been at least 2 to 2.5cm low from the regulator creep since that was a first shot of the day. I just plugged in the number in Strelok and it is showing me that at an average of 950 FPS with the Hades, the gun has to be shooting at least 150 FPS below the average to be at least 2.3cm low at 30 meters. My question is, is 150 FPS discrepancy for a first shot of the day normal for a tune this far off from ideal? I'm asking because I have tuned my rifle tuned properly and it's shooting awesome right now and it took me a while and a lot of effort to get it there. It's just idle curiosity but I don't want to touch the gun's tune to find out.
 
Hard to actually tell and just a guess without running the first shot over a chronograph to see how slow the first shot actually is. And with the hammer spring backed out so far your sd and extreme spread probably isn't the best either.

You need to drop the reg pressure and re tune 3-5% below max velocity if you want it to be the best it can be. 

You'll find out when you start coming off the regs set pressure your velocity is going to climb back up above 950 and spike. Throwing off shots at the other end of your string. 
 
I had this same "first shot low" issue in both my regulated Impact and in my unregulated Slayer. Both were separate and distinct problems, but both were solved with the application of Krytox 205 grease. The belville washers in the Impact's regulator needed "cleaned up" with fine grit sandpaper to take the sharp corners off and lightly greased with Krytox to work consistently (it had regulator creep which over pressurized the system for the spring tension and tune). As for the Slayer, it's balanced valve holds a lot of pressure and this deforms the o-ring over time and causes "stiction" of the moving valve stem at the first shot and a slower speed. Replacing the o-rings did help, and pure silicone grease was used at first, but the "first shot low" problem persisted. The eventual application of the Krytox 205 grease was what did make it a consistent shooter after sitting for extended periods of time. Both airguns will need to have those and other moving parts re-cleaned and another application of Krytox applied as regular maintenance over time, but the stuff is an amazing lubricant.
 
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I had this same "first shot low" issue in both my regulated Impact and in my unregulated Slayer. Both were separate and distinct problems, but both were solved with the application of Krytox 205 grease. The belville washers in the Impact's regulator needed "cleaned up" with fine grit sandpaper to take the sharp corners off and lightly greased with Krytox to work consistently (it had regulator creep which over pressurized the system for the spring tension and tune). As for the Slayer, it's balanced valve holds a lot of pressure and this deforms the o-ring over time and causes "stiction" of the moving valve stem at the first shot and a slower speed. Replacing the o-rings did help, and pure silicone grease was used at first, but the "first shot low" problem persisted. The eventual application of the Krytox 205 grease was what did make it a consistent shooter after sitting for extended periods of time. Both airguns will need to have those and other moving parts re-cleaned and another application of Krytox applied as regular maintenance over time, but the stuff is an amazing lubricant.

Interesting. unfamiliar with that product, does it harm the rubber o-rings?
 
Some bs answers to me , yes lower reg pressure and retune to get to you target speed.

But after that if your first shot velocity is high, reduce the hammer spring slightly then continue to fine tune it waiting several hours in between. If it's low velocity increase it slightly wait reshoot and fine tune a tiny amount on the hammer spring each time.

Perfect Harmony can be found this way just take your time shoot one shot then wait at least 2 hours then take a another shot and make fine adjustments up or down and you will find the harmony.

Don
 
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Some bs answers to me , yes lower reg pressure and retune to get to you target speed.

But after that if your first shot velocity is high, reduce the hammer spring slightly then continue to fine tune it waiting several hours in between. If it's low velocity increase it slightly wait reshoot and fine tune a tiny amount on the hammer spring each time.

Perfect Harmony can be found this way just take your time shoot one shot then wait at least 2 hours then take a another shot and make fine adjustments up or down and you will find the harmony.

Don

Why would you BS around with detuning the gun to try and make it shoot until it is (possibly) in harmony with a faulty regulator instead of correcting/fixing the underlying problem?
 
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Update: I just wanted to update this thread for a long-term feedback because long-term usage was my intended goal for this post to begin with. According to my logs, The last time I adjusted anything on the gun was January 22, 2021. At the time, I have a 21 shot string (with varying fill pressures) that was done in the span of 11 days. I know this is an unconventional shot string because practically all the shot strings I see online are done within just a few minutes. In my use case though, as a pesting rifle, I am really concerned about that first shot accuracy. That last shot string I did consisted of 21 shots (done in a span of 11 days) had a 14 ES and 4.8 SD. That was the best I could do for this rifle. The hammer spring tension adjustment is VERY sensitive to even the slightest movements. The sensitivity is ok to get the gun setup as "good enough" but the numbers are never going to be perfect. I never did a complete one session shot string but I would guess that it will be much tighter in that case.

In actual usage though, everything has been perfect. I haven't chrono-ed the gun since that last shot string. The gun has always been on point whenever I pick it up whether it's only been a day since I last shot it or weeks. There were many times when I didn't touch the gun for months but when the time comes it was able to still get one kill on just one shot. I mainly shoot between 9m to 40 meters. Yes, I still miss (who doesn't) but the vast majority of the misses I can attribute to myself. I have a couple of rodent kills beyond 40 meters with the longest being 66m away.

Overall, I've been quite happy with how the Taipan Veteran Long .22 is performing for my intended purpose. Would I like to tighten up the ES and SD? Yes I do, but I don't know how else to tune it anymore than what I have done, short of adding another inline regulator inside the cylinder. The tune I currently have on it is already serving me very well for my purposes regardless of what the numbers says.

20210120_121839.jpg
 
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Update: I just wanted to update this thread for a long-term feedback because long-term usage was my intended goal for this post to begin with. According to my logs, The last time I adjusted anything on the gun was January 22, 2021. At the time, I have a 21 shot string (with varying fill pressures) that was done in the span of 11 days. I know this is an unconventional shot string because practically all the shot strings I see online are done within just a few minutes. In my use case though, as a pesting rifle, I am really concerned about that first shot accuracy. That last shot string I did consisted of 21 shots (done in a span of 11 days) had a 14 ES and 4.8 SD. That was the best I could do for this rifle. The hammer spring tension adjustment is VERY sensitive to even the slightest movements. The sensitivity is ok to get the gun setup as "good enough" but the numbers are never going to be perfect. I never did a complete one session shot string but I would guess that it will be much tighter in that case.

In actual usage though, everything has been perfect. I haven't chrono-ed the gun since that last shot string. The gun has always been on point whenever I pick it up whether it's only been a day since I last shot it or weeks. There were many times when I didn't touch the gun for months but when the time comes it was able to still get one kill on just one shot. I mainly shoot between 9m to 40 meters. Yes, I still miss (who doesn't) but the vast majority of the misses I can attribute to myself. I have a couple of rodent kills beyond 40 meters with the longest being 66m away.

Overall, I've been quite happy with how the Taipan Veteran Long .22 is performing for my intended purpose. Would I like to tighten up the ES and SD? Yes I do, but I don't know how else to tune it anymore than what I have done, short of adding another inline regulator inside the cylinder. The tune I currently have on it is already serving me very well for my purposes regardless of what the numbers says.

View attachment 445153
ALOT!!! of good info on video.
 
ALOT!!! of good info on video.
Yes, I just watched the beginning part of that video last night. That was exactly what I was doing with my gun when I was tuning it. Although my gun was a huge pain to tune as the regulator was inside the cylinder so I had to take it apart I think 3 or 4 times to make minor adjustments. In the future, I will definitely buy a reg tester for whenever I ever have to service the regulator in this gun. I have the Huma Air regulator in it currently.
 
My 5 pcps were all under $500 each and 3 are P35s. So a different price class. But the regulators in my P35s do not like being even 5% below peak velocity, especially the 25 caliber. I have to stay closer to peak velocity or my first shot velocity is low - but not 150 fps. I don't think I've ever seen even 50 fps below. But poi may be affected even when velocity is not that far off. I have not taken the regulators apart to try and change this behavior, I just tune them close to peak velocity. The efficiency of the 177 and 25 caliber is still pretty good, the 22 a little less so - but the 22 is the most accurate. My "solution" to finding the first shot low in velocity is to turn up the hammer spring - or turn down the regulator (which is internal on the P35 somewhat like the Taipan Veteran from the videos I've seen).
 
I just want to post another update on this rifle with some shot strings. As a standby varmint rifle, I haven't put many shots on this rifle since I bought it in mid 2020. 1,397 shots total as of today according to my count. Back when I first received it, I tuned the rifle in a span of a few days because I notice that I kept missing the first shots after the rifle has sat unused for a while. I haven't touch the tune at all since then and the gun has wonderfully held on to its tune in the 4 years I've owned it. It does have a Huma regulator in it.

I also haven't had to re-zero the gun at all ever since I zeroed it for the JSB Hades all those years ago. I re-checked zero just a few nights ago and it was still on target. This is considering that I had the gun completely apart just a few months ago (attempted to change the barrel, but Talon Tunes sent me the wrong one, and also checked the valve inside the air cylinder). Also changed the stock and the suppressor.

Lately, I have been experimenting with slugs in the gun and I had the chance to shoot some strings with it. The strings below were not shot continuously. Most are 5 shot groups, move to the next projectile, and then come back and shoot some more. These strings were done in a span of a few days and include the all important "cold barrel" first shots. I have a few other projectiles not shown as I only wanted to show the strings with at least 10 shots. Some of the slugs I knew wouldn't work in my gun within less than 10 shots.

First "cold barrel" shots of the day are highlighted in green.

H&N Slug HP 21gr 0.217 - 16 shots, ES 4, std dev 1.204, avg 836 (FPS = 836, 836, 836, 835, 834, 834, 838, 836, 836, 836, 837, 837, 838, 837, 837, 835)

H&N Slug HP 23gr 0.217 - 24 shots, ES 7, std dev 1.86, avg 801 (FPS = 803, 802, 802, 801, 801, 801, 799, 799 803, 800, 801, 800 804, 804, 805, 803, 802, 800, 801 802, 800, 800, 798, 798)

2021 NSA 17.5gr 0.2165 - 18 shots, ES 24, std dev 6.615, avg 896 (FPS = 884, 890, 891, 906, 899, 900, 900, 900, 898, 902, 900, 901, 903, 900, 892, 882, 895, 891)

2024 NSA 17.5gr 0.2165 - 13 shots, ES 6, std dev 1.89, avg 899 (FPS = 899, 903, 897, 900, 899, 898, 899, 897, 898, 902, 901, 901, 898)
Note: I have a sample pack of these NSA's from 3 years ago and then bought some from the latest batch. I decided to separate the shot strings because there was some difference in the diameter between the two batches.

FX Hybrids - 10 shots, ES 8, std dev 2.16, avg 811 (FPS = 816, 812, 811, 808, 810, 810, 810, 812, 813, 811)

I noticed that some projectiles have a much tighter spread than others. I don't know if this indicates variations of weights and/or dimensions within each slug or it could also be how well each slug fit in the barrel. I realize my sample is small and it's impossible to tell either way.

Again, each shot string is between at least 2 or 3 sessions. They're also done with varying fill pressures between 190 bars and 100 bars. I know this is not how people typically do shot strings (all shots done in one session and in relatively quick succession) to gauge a gun's performance, but as a standby backyard varmint rifle, I feel that this very closely reflects on how I'm actually using the gun... especially when considering that all important first shot of the day cold barrel kill.

The gun was a real pain in the ass to tune. Having the regulator inside the air cylinder made it really difficult, but once I got it shooting correctly, it has held its tune quite well over time. I'm really happy with how the gun has performed in the past few years I've owned it.

20240714_223439.jpg
 
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