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Barrel Length, the seldomly understood calculus

I am not going to claim to have full understanding of the calculus behind how projectile velocity determines effective barrel length, but this thread will briefly go over what I have learned, and how pellet weight and most importantly pellet velocity alone greatly impacts the 'effective barrel length' in a pcp (and most airguns).

Generally speaking, a well tuned airgun rifle's valve will close by the time the pellet reaches between 30-50% of the barrel length, however this applies to rifles with the common 18-24" barrel, and just happens to coincide with physics. Some may notice, a heavier pellet will produce more FPE than a lighter one. The physics here is easy to explain, as the heavier pellet moves slower, it spends more time in the barrel (pellet dwell), which allows the mass of air ejected to transfer more energy to the projectile, and likewise, if you go really light, you'll notice a huge decrease in energy, because the pellet is traveling down the bore so fast, the 'effective barrel length' is reduced, however marginal it may be, it is physics and a race of air molecule velocity versus your pellet velocity.

"Bobs lofty goal" formula from the GTA does not take this effective length into account whatsoever, hence why short barrels crush his lofty goal, because it assumes 50% barrel use, where short barrels will exceed this.

Do note, it takes a huge shift in projectile weight to drastically shift the effective barrel length, and the science behind the mass of air working on the mass of lead within the barrel is not simple. Once projectile velocity decreases below 950 fps the effect becomes more and more noticeable

The GK1 really brought to light to many, myself included, just how impactful this is, hence why a 8-9" barrel can really pack a punch, the first 9" of any airgun is commonly their peak 'effective' range for the common sub 30gr pellet, but for big bores and the like, getting up heavier and heavier in ammo (100gr+), they really begin to take advantage of much longer barrels, producing gobs of power and pushing the effective barrel distance towards much further than 9-10", meaning many heavy ammo shooters greatly benefit from 30"+ barrels (provided they desire a fairly non-violent shot cycle airguns are known for while producing gobs of power).

Below is an example of the pressure and fps/energy gradient of a very standard airgun. 22 cal, 19.5" barrel, 25 cc plenum volume, 2000 psi set point, .187" ported, shooting 18.1 gr. (also to be noted, the effective barrel length used @ 19.5"/495mm opposed to 20" @ 500mm is because we're measuring the pellets traversal distance, which is from where it sits in front of the transfer port to muzzle.)

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The valves closure distance here is at 9.3" or 47.5%~ of the barrel length, why 47.5% and not 45% or 50%, well, because I said so! LOL (for demonstration and based on my tests of 19.5" barrels with nominal pellet weights)

But what happens when we compare this to a GK1 that has all identical features (and a theoretical regulated 25 cc plenum), where we only reduce its barrel length to 8.2"

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Say whaaaaaat? The difference in power between the two power plants here is minimal, and its simply the calculus of air molecules chasing the pellet down the bore, where the gk1 is able to use upwards of 90-100% of its barrel length effectively, the 20" barrel uses 45%-50% to transfer energy, where the remainder is primarily reducing pressure for muzzle noise/flip. The above graphs are not 100% actual representations, rather theoretical, for demonstration only.

So what about really long barrels and heavy ammo? Well, I am not claiming to have it all figured out, and the mad men that do have it all figured out, well feel free to chime in! The below is a 36" barrel that would in theory use 35% of its barrel length, however, I have done zero tests to even begin to grasp very long barrel lengths, as I am simply fudging numbers based on theoretical peak projectile velocity and estimated pellet dwell extrapolated from that, so take the actual figures below with a grain of salt, where the above figures are fairly reasonable.

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In any case, with all pcps, the moment the valve shuts, the bore experiences a sharp drop in pressure, and the gradient of this pressure is one reason that makes our pcps so delightful to shoot, from minimal muzzle noise, to minimal muzzle flip. I hope this helps paint a picture how projectile velocity greatly effects the 'effective barrel length' in pcps, where the majority of energy transfer occurs sharply in the first 10", and as the projectile outpaces air, energy transfer greatly stagnates.

This concludes my Ted Talk for the day.


-Matt

FX  $2000 to spend

I am ordering a new FX in the next few weeks. I have a Dream lite and love it so am for sure buying another FX rifle. I want more power so considering the Crown and M4 rifles. I understand all of the advantages of the adjustment capability of the M4 and overall high ratings. I like the design of both guns equally. One concern is a posting I read here on the site that the M4 has more O rings than the Crown and (at least the poster) was of the opinion the M4 was not as reliable in the long term as the Crown would be. I shoot more than the average person so trouble free longevity is important to me. I am interested it your opinions regarding this issue.

Labor Day Sales 2024

Post links and descriptions to good sales here. I expect a lot of typical 10%-12% off ads. While not "good" its still money saved on sites that don't mark up items then advertise a "sale".

Corbin Manufacturing Labor Day Sale 10%-20% off
go to https://www.corbins.com/shop and use the codes in the photo below
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Nielsen Specialty Ammo (not a Labor Day sale, but still 20% off)
https://nielsenspecialtyammo.com/ use the code in the photo below on the bottom righthand side.
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Sportsman's Guide Labor Day Sale up to 80% off. (These sales are worded slick. gotta sift through a lot of product, but some decent prices on a few Athlon scope at a quick glance). *Be mindful that non-member prices are in black.

Here are some of their air rifles (sleet rifles are on sale)

"MEH" Sale Section

Pyramyd Air Labor Day Sale
11% off SELECT ITEMS
https://www.pyramydair.com/ use coupon code in photo
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Airgun Depot Labor Day Sale
11% off
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DVOR Labor Day $5 off Coupon Code pictured below
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N/A  Whats your most consistently accurate airgun?

Whats that one airgun you have that's got that unicorn barrel that just amazes you everytime you shoot it? I've owned many airguns and I can't say I've had one like this before just crazy accurate. My Taipan Vet Long .22 shooting JTS 18gr at 920fps.
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50yds 4 5 shot groups. Avg of .284". I think my parallax was off a hair as it wasn't dead center on all targets like usual but not too stressed about that. On the second one the last shot was the one that dropped lower. If it didn't it was .184" for those first 4 and would have avg .216". Hard to complain when your worst group is .456" and still subMOA. Also think the .155" is my best 5 shot group at 50yds to date. But yeah this gun has about ruined me now and expectations of accuracy with other guns. Kinda sucks lol
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Results  2024 National 50 Benchrest League Championship Results - NRA Whittington Center, Raton, NM, 8/24 & 8/25

New scoring pages are attached. go to https://www.national50.net/, click "Match Results" near top, click "2024 Championship"

2024 N50 Nationals, NRA Whittington Center, Raton, NM are done. Another nice year to compete to find the best 50 yard shooters. We combine airgun & 22LR competitors in real life, 6 card agg, stacked and sorted in the same conditions and rotated benches many times to ensure. Competitors pulled their own benches and we rotated 8 bench positions and repeated Sunday. Again Pro, Sportsman, and Pellet Classes competed. We encourage air rifles to shoot in the more challenging Sportsman and Pro classes for interesting comparisons - it's summed in 'Pellet Combined' Class.

Eight states were represented and Panama too. Obviously Jeffrey H. takes the long-distance award and the Washington guys, Mark & Harvey, traveled far too. Good to see old friends and meet new ones. Met really good guy Mike Dugas and wife hailing from Louisiana! Even though participation was down due to illnesses and other conflicts we expect more fun next year. We lost 3 competitors at the range due to busyness or problems. I hope they come back tougher next year. Big thank you for those on Thursday setting up the target boards. Mike's BIL John & sons Caleb & Landon helped tremendously pulling targets and data entry. Lothar Walther donated barrels for the event and some competitors took them home - send L-W a note. We missed Joe Friedrich & Ardey Vad - the good ones.

Weather was overall nice; Sunday was nicer. Other than the hurricane wind (one card) that knocked down flag stands and threw dirt in our eyes. I heard the hold-overs were fun. I'm sure there will be other comments and photos.

Sorry for the late report. Lots of Raton connectivity issues, phone connection was worse than before. Looks like we are going to have to invest in SkyLink. And I had some personal issues I had to attend to when I got home. Scores will be uploaded to the new N50 Score page really soon. In fact I'll probably replace these spreadsheets later. Equipment will be found on the N50 score page too.

As normal request, if you see something wrong let me know by DM, AGN 'Conversations' or phone. I don't like my face rubbed in my own poop and not clog-up this thread - you know. If something is really messed up I will deal with it publicly.

Pellet Class: Pellets only, up to 30 caliber. Scored with 0.35 plug.
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Sportsman Class: Slugs and RF. Pellets, up to .30 cal, are allowed. Scored with 0.35 plug.
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Pro Class: Custom Slugs and Unlimited RF. Pellet (22cal) & Sportsman class allowed. Scored with 0.224 plug.
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Combined Class: Sum of all 3 primary classes
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Pellet Combined Class: Pellet only rifle used in all 3 primary classes.
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Generous folks help to set-up - Thank you!
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Usual suspects...
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Photo request. I was busy so I didn't get enough, please share.

Special thanks to our sponsors:
Joe Friedrich: Cash Prizes
Lothar Walther: Barrels https://www.lothar-walther.com/

N50: https://www.national50.net/
FB N50: https://www.facebook.com/50National/

N/A  14-15fpe .22 Springer

I'm looking for a good .22 springer around the 14-15fpe range. Basically want to have a self sufficient version of my lower powered PCPs for close range shooting and pesting. What are my choices? I'd love a RWS 34P like I used to have but those aren't made anymore and don't want one of the EMS versions. What else is out there? Also I prefer one with iron sights.

Tuning  Red dot on pistol

I am an old instinst shooter, I can pick up a pistol and roll a coke can just shooting no aiming 10 20 30 yards, Now I start aiming when I want to make a small hit like a rattle snake head.
Now with a fast shot you have to uncover the red dot turn it on find the dot and shoot,, But for me I have not trained my hand arm and mind to hold the gun down below the target..
Shooting with a red dot , To put the dot on the target it feels like you are holding the pistol below the target,, Maybe its just me anyone else have this problem??
Mike

Which would you shoot?

I have the following.

JTS 29.6 @ 790/800

JTS 25.4 @ 850/860

ZAN 28.0 @ 840/840 ( horrible spread )

At realistic limit of current setup. Can get 20-30 more FPS but that would be absolute max. Half turn from max spring load. (Coil bind). Now 2-3 turns out. Waiting on a new heavier spring to try and reduce hammer bounce by reducing preload.

Both JTS group well. Sub 1/2” @ 40 yards.

Mike

  • Question
Daystate  Alpha wolf slow first shot

Well as the title says my alpha wolf has a slow first shot. Anytime the ecu powers off, when I cycle the safety and shoot the first shot is 20-50fps slower than my setting. Both in factory mode and, it will do the same in the advanced mode. Has anyone experienced this? It shots great after the first shot. I bought the gun used from airguns of Arizona and the test card they sent with the gun shows the same thing. This happens if i set the power off to 1 min it'll still do it with the reg pressure reading 122bar where it is set so it's not a regular pressure problem. Any thoughts?

GX Compressor Longevity

Lots of questions about how robust GX compressors are and what maintenance needs to be done.
I had some time at lunch today and it was time for the CS2 to get it's visual inspection. I usually pull the piston out, but I am pretty familiar with this compressor, so I just pulled the head to look things over and see how it's doing. As you can see from the pics it's nice and clean, with a very thin film of grease on the cylinder walls and the underside of the head, so all is well. In another 3-6 months I'll pull everything out, clean it up and relube and reassemble, but for now it's going strong. As you can see this one is from May 2022, and that's just about when I bought it, so just over two years of almost daily use, and it looks perfect.

I have three CS2 compressors and my neighbor has a CS3 that I sold him, and all look the same way. I've run the above compressor almost every day, and the two others get about half that use, as they are at other shooting locations. I only pump up rifles with tanks ranging from a FX Dream Tac tiny tank, all the way up to my Brocock Bantam 580cc, and they fill quick and that's why I don't fool with auto stop of the CS3, and sold it.

I really recommend these compressors, they work well, parts are readily available and a complete rebuild is less than an hours work if you work slow. I can tear one down to nuts and bolts, without taking the drive gear out, in less than 20 minutes. I thought about buying an extra cylinder, and then I thought why not just buy another entire unit and have all the parts. Well, I did buy some parts from Target Forge and GX USA and I have an extra compressor for parts, and in over two years haven't used a single part.

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Airgun Technologies  Uragan gen 1 thoughts from long time users?

So I am looking at possibly getting a Uragan gen 1 compact in 177 for backyard fun and slaying a few wasps here and there.
I have done a lot of reading on this so thinking Gen 1 due to the balanced valve (Uragan 2) not being conducive for low power use.

I have read all the caveats on the hose issue.

What else can all you first gen buyers tell me about them?

Anyone pushing power down sub-12 ft lb or preferrably sub-10 ft lb.?

Any other long term issues?

Ever have one of THOSE days...?

Everything was "ON" today. I took my new gun to the permission. I have about 400 pellets through it getting it sighted, tuned and comfortable from the seated at a bench position. Today was trial by fire for the Reximex TORMENTA. Live fire drills at furry targets from the ATV seat. The first stand gave me three mid-sized teen-agers at 25 yards.

BAM BAM BAM - three in a row in less than a minute. Off to a good start :D

All day long it was point and click and SMACK! I took 40 pellets and scored 38 kills with only a few data points filled out on my dope card. All shots were between 20 and 58 yards. The .25 domes made by Air Arms really performed well for me today. I got comfortable shooting head shots, getting several that just showed an eye and ear above ground. The temperature was perfect, the wind was just enough to keep the flying insects away and the targets were cooperative.

All in all, one of those "dear diary" days.

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N/A  Way to test power of bb and pellet guns before you buy in Pawnshop, Estate Sale ect.

I lack the talent to reseal airguns and thus is very expensive if I buy a used airgun that needs resealing, I need a portable way to judge the velocity of a pellet and bb guns I am handling. Needs to be something I can safely do indoors. My chrono does not work indoors. Thinking of something that can be calibrated like ballistic putty but the only kind I found so far is not clear. Maybe a catalog that I calibrate the number of pages penetrated with my measured chrono readings for bbs and say wadcutter pellets but that is a lot of work. Anybody have some cheap and safe way (pawn shop will not let me test it if it appears unsafe) to test pellet and bb guns so I can at least tell if a reseal will not be needed. Would like it to shoot at least 75% of velocity of a new one. The last bb gun I bought, I put my hand on the barrel and fired it but it was Daisy 25 that I could safely look in the magazine to make sure it is empty. May not try it on gravity feed. I am looking for something east and more accurate than sound and feel of the discharge. I plan to visit more pawn shops in the future. Thanks in advance for all replies.
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Reactions: Bandito

PCP Rifle  SOLD Edgun Leshiy 2 .25 350mm REPR Behemoth Reflex ATN X-Site 4k w LRF

As the title says I have an Edgun Leshiy 2 350 mm in .25 for sale. It's one of the originals that were sold as I pre-ordered. I've upgraded it with the REPR reg, I have the original that I'll send with it. I'll also include the Behemoth Reflex moderator kit. I purchased that one year ago. Everything is in perfect working order. The only blemish is a scratch that is the picture. I have the original barrel shroud as well.

The images show it pictured with an ATN X-sight 4k pro with the attached LRF and a couple different IR light the shlocker from sniper hog lights. It's been a great slim IR light. This has been a great combo for night hunting. I will sell with or without the scope.

The package also includes an under scope mag mount, and two mags.

The image has the Hogue gripe I put it, I also have the original red/black wood grip in perfect condition that will be included.

I'll also include a few full tins of pellets with the purchase.

$2,600 for the entire package with $100 for shipping.

$2,100 If you don't want the scope

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Daystate Alpha Wolf Blue Special Edition

The Daystate Alpha Wolf Blue laminate rifle not only looks beautiful, but it shoots incredible as well. All Alpha Wolf's come with the Ultra Valve installed from factory which produces 15% more power than the first edition of the Delta Wolf. The Blue Laminate Alpha Wolf also includes a blue 0DB moderator and the Data Transfer Device (DTD).

Contact your local Daystate dealers to get this incredible rifle. Click the link below to find one of our fine Daystate dealers in the U.S. to order now.

https://daystate.com/dealer-locator/

Taipan  Quirk with the vet 1

I know at least 5 guys who can answer this one. My 5 year old venerable vet 1 has this odd issue. When I fill to 230-250 bar, my shots are not as powerful. When the reg lowers towards 200 bar, the power increases, raising my POI. But from say, around 205 bar down to the reg pressure, shot strength is as consistent as you would expect. Is my reg getting worn/sloppy? It’s a huma, about 2-3 years old.

Other  What $250 means to me

Had an interesting observation yesterday - I made a list of recently purchased springers under $250, and a second list of $250+ springers.
On the under 250 side were 10 Diana rifles, and 2 HW's (one was bought as a project gun, the other was a lucky gun store find). On the $250+ side were 2 Diana's and 9 HW's.
Most guns were bought used or if new, as a refurb or on sale. The two "N" stocked HWs were full price though.

Considering that I respect my Diana's in very nearly the same way I do the HWs I own, this shows me that there's a lot of value in searching out good Diana rifles.

Wondering how many of you see things the same way?

  • Locked
Calling All Airgun Coyote Hunters!!

With all of the questions frequently surfacing about airguns and suggestions for hunting coyotes and dispatching problematic coyotes, WHERE ARE THE COYOTE AIRGUN HUNTERS? Where are the threads and photos? The forums get peppered with threads and the same types of questions about hunting coyotes because you're afraid they'll eat the outside cats or scale your backyard fence, eat your pooch, and jump back over your fence without consequence. So who's actually hunted a coyote with an airgun after utilizing the plethora of advice and information obtained and compiled in our wonderful forums?

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